Hosts of NPR's "Louder Than A Riot": Rodney Carmichael (L) and Sidney Madden (R)

Hosts of NPR's "Louder Than A Riot": Rodney Carmichael (L) and Sidney Madden (R)

Photo: NPR's Christian Cody and Joshua Kissi

 
 
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Rhyme & Punishment: How NPR's "Louder Than A Riot" Podcast Traces The Interconnected Rise Of Hip-Hop And Mass Incarceration

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Co-hosts Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden break down how "Louder Than A Riot" explores the wide-spanning issue of mass incarceration through the lens of hip-hop music and culture, as told by the artists, journalists and executives who lived it
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Oct 11, 2020 - 12:51 pm

Here's a big theory: The dramatic surge in mass incarceration in the U.S. is intertwined with the explosive rise of hip-hop music and culture. 

Here's an even bigger theory, this one falling closer to the conspiracy sorts: Record labels, which allegedly have investments in the private prison system, purposely market criminal behavior via rap music to increase the prison population and, in turn, boost their profits.

The latter conspiracy theory has been circulating around hip-hop circles and the wider music industry for nearly a decade. In 2012, at the height of the hip-hop blog era, someone wrote an anonymous letter describing a "secret meeting" in which executives from the industrial prison complex and the music industry discussed the aforementioned symbiotic relationship. The letter exploded on the internet, sparking heated debates around the validity of the note itself as well as the underlying trigger warnings contained within it. 

Whether the letter is real or not and whether that "secret meeting" ever happened, the conspiracy theory revealed a lot about the fear and paranoia surrounding the many ways the U.S. criminal justice system disproportionately impacts Black Americans and people of color, NPR Music staff writer Rodney Carmichael explains in the debut episode of "Louder Than A Riot." 

"There was just a lot of online debates about whether the meeting that was described [in the letter] was real, whether the impact that it was laying out had manifested and registered," Carmichael tells GRAMMY.com in a recent interview. "Now, in terms of where I stand on it, I'd really rather leave that to the episode. We use the letter to reveal a lot of things … But I really want people to be able to check out the episode to get a better sense of where we stand on it, and not only us, but the culture [as well]."

Launched this week (Oct. 8), "Louder Than A Riot," the first narrative podcast series from NPR Music, explores the wide-spanning issue of mass incarceration through the lens of hip-hop music and culture, as told by the artists, journalists, legal experts, activists and music industry executives who've experienced the hyperincarceration phenomenon and were directly impacted by the criminal justice system. 

Each week, the limited-series podcast will dissect a different aspect of the criminal justice system—the probation and parole system in the U.S., the growing power of prosecutors and plea deals, the practice of RICO laws on street gangs—and its wider, often detrimental, effects on Black America and other communities of color. 

"Louder Than A Riot" continues a long-running conversation that the hip-hop community at large has been chronicling for decades, from the reality rap and social commentary within Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five's 1982 hood anthem "The Message" to The Source magazine's "Hip-Hop Behind Bars" 2004 cover story to Kendrick Lamar's eye-opening performance at the 2016 GRAMMYs.

"We just have to remember that hip-hop has been rapping about this stuff for 40 years," Carmichael says. "This is not a new conversation for the culture. This is not a new conversation within the genre. Hip-hop has been being dismissed by people in power for 40 years … To me, the answer to the question, 'What's louder than a riot?' It's actually hip-hop."

"Louder Than A Riot" co-host Sidney Madden, a reporter and editor for NPR Music, hopes the show will lead to real-life change.

"Our greatest impact would be to put something out that creates cultural conversations that can lead to cultural shifting, that can lead to societal shifting, that can be ... one of those things that's put into the world that wakes people up to things that they've had the luxury to be asleep on," she tells GRAMMY.com. "My biggest aspiration for creating this body of work and presenting it to listeners is that it's going to have people challenge themselves, complicate questions about their role in the whole thing, and start a lot more conversations that can lead to shifts in society."

GRAMMY.com spoke to "Louder Than A Riot" co-hosts Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden about the show's expansive look into the sociopolitical issues within hip-hop culture, rap's long-running and contentious relationship with the criminal justice system and the artists and rappers continuing the conversation today.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

"Louder Than A Riot" examines a very big idea: the interconnected rise of hip-hop and mass incarceration. That's a heavy theory that is perhaps not obvious to many everyday music listeners and hip-hop heads. Can you tell me about how you got to this theory in the first place?

Rodney Carmichael: Well, I think it's important first to recognize the fact that this is not the first time that this intersection has been explored. [The] Source magazine did a few classic annual issues back in the early 2000s ... Hip-Hop Behind Bars [in 2004] .. where they really explored what felt like was becoming a really big deal. Obviously, the criminal justice system disproportionately impacts Black America and other communities of color [like] Brown America. With hip-hop coming from those communities, it's just a reflection of that inequality. It's always been in the music. It's always been something that the culture, I think, has recognized in terms of the injustice built into the systems and the systemic inequality.

I don't necessarily think the connection is new. I think there hasn't been enough conversation about how, in some ways, there feels like there's this interrelated thing going on between the two of them at times. That was part of it ... kind of recognizing that this has always been something that's talked about. I think mass incarceration—we're not the first to say it—is really one of the biggest, most pressing civil rights issues of our time. It's gotten to a point now where it's a bipartisan issue: criminal justice reform. 

People on the right and the left, sometimes for different reasons, have coalesced around this issue and [are] realizing that a lot of the really tough-on-crime policies that were prevalent during the Drug War era and afterwards, through the '80s and '90s, got us to this point where we incarcerate more people [at] a higher percentage of our population than any other nation on the planet. It's a problem, and it's been impacting us the most, and hip-hop has been talking about it the most. So why not explore those two?

Sydney Madden: It's funny because now it's considered a bipartisan issue to be against mass incarceration without trying to take any responsibility as to how we got here. So many policies that were enacted in the '80s and '90s are really showing that boom in population, and the chickens are coming home to roost. But the whole time, way before there was any sociological study or political pundit trying to advocate for these things, hip-hop was pushing back. You can see it through the lineage of the lyrics. You see it through a lot of artists who talked about it, whether it'd be in interviews or artists that went through cases themselves, whether it be 2Pac or Shyne or Beanie Sigel, Lil Wayne, Lil' Kim, Gucci [Mane]. I mean, even now like JT from the City Girls, Bobby Shmurda, Tay-K.

It's so funny because I can rattle off all these names. They seem like different cases, but none of these cases happen in a vacuum. The topic does seem a little bit sprawling when you first hear about it, but that's the thing about the podcast that we're going to take you through. We're going to take you through the timeline of how these numbers in America and for the population surpassed a million and ballooned to even 2 million [prisoners] now and 4.5 million people living on parole. And then, how at the same time, hip-hop became the most dominant, most consumed, most commercialized and profitable genre while it was still pushing back at all of these things at its core. [The podcast is] really about the parallel rise between two American phenomenons, and then how they connect with each other.

We take you through that timeline in the show, and then we break down real-world cases for you throughout history to give you a real proof of concept the whole way through. So it does seem a little bit overwhelming, but then every subsequent episode of the podcast is going to become more and more clear that the [criminology] in hip-hop is really a microcosm of the criminalization of Black America as a whole.

Let's jump off that. The podcast traces a few key moments in American history that contributed to the rise in the prison population and also coincided with the rise of hip-hop. For example, the first episode dives into the War on Drugs during the Reagan era, which, as you report, affected incarceration rates. How far back and how current does the podcast travel? What are some other key moments or developments that the podcast examines?

Madden: The podcast really does start with a lot of the roots of sociopolitical critique that hip-hop has always been about. We start with "The Message" [from Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five] in '82 and Reagan's re-imagining of the War on Drugs. Then we go through the '90s. And then, when we start to deep-dive into cases is really at the turn of the century. Every case that we explore has a specific theme, but it also gives you the specific time marker of where hip-hop is at in the marketplace and where it's shifting and growing into its own ...

And then, we take you through a lot of cases every decade. We get really contemporary with it at the end. The final episodes, which are going to be airing after this [2020 presidential] election is over, it's going to be very contemporary in [terms of] talking about the fight for reforms right now and the fight for abolition right now. We try to do a lot of time traveling with you, but not too much that you get whiplash.

So it's not going to feel like a college course.

Madden: It is not. It's not "Hip-Hop 101." It's not "Crime and Punishment in America." It's history and context and contemporary cultural takes all in one. That's the secret sauce of it all.

Carmichael: We try to cover 30-40 years in [the first] episode. It's probably our least narrative episode, but almost all the other episodes are going to be narrative. We're going to be telling stories about a specific person who has been impacted by this interconnected rise, and who's been caught in the crosshairs of the criminal justice system. It's not going to feel academic at all. These are stories. We know that hip-hop loves stories. It's a genre full of storytellers. So we're trying to connect these big, broad issues and communicate them in a way that the culture eats.

Madden: Absolutely. Rooted in culture. Rooted in reality. Pretty much all the cases that we dive into, we have artists at the center of it; we have interviews with them. We have interviews with all the connected players, from people on the industry side, the people in their management camp, their marketing people, their friends growing up. A lot of rappers' parents make appearances in this show as well as people on the law enforcement side. So you can get a full picture of not retrying an artist for a specific case, but really the larger sociopolitical umbrella that all of these things happen under.

The podcast opens with a story about an anonymously written letter that describes an imagined scene in a supposed "secret meeting" in which executives from the industrial prison complex and the music industry meet to discuss how the marketing of rap music could promote criminal behavior and in turn increase the prison population, which would ultimately boost profits for the prison system and its record label investors. There's a whole conspiracy theory about this. When was the first time you heard about this conspiracy theory? And where does each of you stand in regard to the validity of this "secret meeting"?

Carmichael: I think I heard about it pretty much at the time that this anonymously written letter first hit the internet, which was 2012 … There was just a lot of online debates about whether the meeting that was described [in the letter] was real, whether the impact that it was laying out had manifested and registered. It was a really interesting debate that I think, in a lot of ways, captured a lot of the angst that certain generations of the culture were going through at the time. Hip-hop was evolving, and everybody didn't necessarily like the way it had changed from the golden era to where we were at that point.

Now, in terms of where I stand on it, I'd really rather leave that to the episode. We use the letter to reveal a lot of things. But this is also an age that we're currently in where there's a lot of weight put into and onto conspiracy theories … Us being journalists, we wanted to make sure that we treated this conspiracy theory in the most journalistically sound way; I think we ultimately do. But I really want people to be able to check out the episode to get a better sense of where we stand on it, and not only us, but the culture [as well].

Madden: I'll definitely echo what Rodney is saying. I want listeners to hear what our take is and the culture's take is in the episode. But in terms of actually learning about the letter itself ... I didn't learn about it immediately ...I want to say I found out about it a year or two after, but it's because somebody was having a debate about it …

It was a bit mind-blowing, but also like, "Hmmm, I could see that. That's right on the money." … This is the time of Kendrick [Lamar's] Section.80 and good kid, m.A.A.d city. This is the time of [Meek Mill's] Dreams and Nightmares or Big K.R.I.T.'s Live From the Underground. There were so many things already happening in the music and the lyrics that legitimized this connection.

Rodney, at the end of the debut episode, you borrow a part of a Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. quote in which you say, "If a riot 'is the language of the unheard' … then rap is the definitive soundtrack." What's the significance of the show's title, "Louder Than a Riot"?

Carmichael: We wanted to pick a name that spoke to this wake-up call that 2020 has become. But also, it really connected with [how], just historically, the fact that hip-hop has always been a voice for the voiceless. That quote just came to mind because it's interesting to see now how protests and things of this nature, which have always been politicized, but in this current age are continuing to be politicized in a way ...

I think the key is that as America seems, in a lot of ways, to have awakened to a lot of the inequality that was exposed this summer in terms of the George Floyd protests and the Breonna [Taylor] protests, we just have to remember that hip-hop has been rapping about this stuff for 40 years. This is not a new conversation for the culture. This is not a new conversation within the genre. Hip-hop has been being dismissed by people in power for 40 years. True, it makes a lot of money now, and it's evolved in terms of how much it's been accepted within mainstream America. But in terms of this politicization, it's always been something that has been disregarded and dismissed by those in power. To me, the answer to the question, "What's louder than a riot?" It's actually hip-hop.

Read: Want To Support Protesters And Black Lives Matter Groups? Here's How

Speaking of which, "Louder Than a Riot" drops during a very critical time in American politics and culture. You have nationwide protests advocating for racial justice and denouncing police brutality. You have the major label complex and the wider music industry reanalyzing its exploitative history and relationship with Black music and Black creators, specifically. What is the significance of "Louder Than a Riot" dropping amidst all of this turmoil and ongoing demands for change? What sort of impact do you think the podcast can make amidst or contribute to this wider cultural conversation?

Madden: We've thought about this a lot. I think one thing that people might not know right off the bat listening [to the podcast] is that this has been something that we've been developing as music journalists ... it's been years leading up to this. But in earnest, we've been developing and reporting and researching this topic for the last two years. The fact that the drop of this show was colliding with this moment in history, it just reinforces our thesis so much more, and it gives me a renewed sense of guidance and purpose ... A lot of what America is waking up to right now and is being forced to face and grapple with right now, hip-hop's been telling y'all.

There are so many moments, whether it's a rally cry, a protest chant or policy change—you're going to hear the seeds of that in hip-hop the farther back you go. That's what we're doing with people. We're showing you where the seeds of this whole movement came from, contextualizing it in a way that is urgent but also digestible and malleable. 

I often think about who we're making this podcast for, and so much of it is people who've been in tune with it, but also people who just had the luxury to enjoy hip-hop without ever feeling challenged by it. And it's like, no—hip-hop is challenging all the things that are not great in America for Black people. Hip-hop is rebelling against that, and hip-hop is showing resilience against that …

In terms of impact, I would say everyone has a different metric of success. But I would say, our greatest impact would be to put something out that creates cultural conversations that can lead to cultural shifting, that can lead to societal shifting, that can be ... one of those things that's put into the world that wakes people up to things that they've had the luxury to be asleep on ... My biggest aspiration for creating this body of work and presenting it to listeners is that it's going to have people challenge themselves, complicate questions about their role in the whole thing, and start a lot more conversations that can lead to shifts in society.

Ultimately, what does the podcast set out to do or what are the questions the podcast aims to answer?

Carmichael: If you're a hip-hop fan or especially if you come from the community that hip-hop originated in, we already understand that mass incarceration and the criminal justice system hit us harder than any other community in this country. That's one thing to just have that general knowledge or that general understanding. But to really get into the weeds of the system and understand how it works and how it goes about disproportionately impacting us is another thing.

With each story that we're telling, we get to focus on or highlight a different aspect of the criminal justice system that an artist is being impacted by, whether it's the probation and parole system in this country, whether it's the power of prosecutors and plea deals and getting into the nitty-gritty of why some 90-plus percent of criminal cases end in plea deals and don't go to trial and how that impacts the turnout of these cases, the sentencing, et cetera, et cetera … 

Each spot along the way, it's just a really revealing, eye-opening thing to really be able to allow people to have a better understanding of how the criminal justice system works, and usually not in our favor.

Who are some rappers and artists continuing this conversation and analyzing these issues in their music?

Madden: For me, I've been a Kendrick fan since day one ... He was like a prophet in some ways. And it's so great because he's getting inspired while he's alive because he's one of the best [artists] we got. Killer Mike is another one who's always been on time with it, whether he was speaking in an interview or dropping so much knowledge in a single verse that it kind of makes your head spin. 

From the younger generation, I think a lot of people don't give Vince Staples enough credit because maybe he's a bit snarky, but he gives you so much focus riddled with commentary, and he breaks it down for you in a way that never adds that, "I'm going to explain what I already said," type of thing. Noname out of Chicago. She's 'bout it, 'bout it a hundred percent in her lyrics and also in her intent and in her activation. Her starting the Noname Book Club as a force for learning … I think those type of actions and those types of motives are what's going to push us forward and propel this conversation way beyond the series' 10 episodes. Some of the people I named just now for you are actually featured in the series.

Read: Fight The Power: 11 Powerful Protest Songs Advocating For Racial Justice

Carmichael: I just want to say: All rap is political to me. It's interesting. You hear a lot of conversation today about the fact that hip-hop is not as political as it used to be. "Where are the Public Enemys?" and whatnot. But I'm from Atlanta, and trap, which really originated here, is one of the most political art forms that I think has emerged out of hip-hop and out of Black America. Hip-hop, I think, nowadays and rap in general and trap, to be more specific—its political point of view is more about giving you a version of reality that we as a country often are not willing to look at or not willing to deal with. It's very much a political point of view. 

When we think of a lot of the marginalization that is happening in this country—[for example], Atlanta, for many years running, has been the income inequality capital; the gap between the haves and the have-nots is wider here than anywhere else. That's reflected in music that is giving a voice that wouldn't otherwise have a voice. The irony is that Atlanta is also considered the Black Mecca, and it's considered to be a place where Black folks, especially, have more and better opportunity to succeed and achieve than anywhere else in the country.

And the truth is that both of those things are true. A lot of Black folk do not fit into that narrative here. A lot of Black folk have been historically overlooked here if they aren't in the middle class. What could be more political than them being able to have a platform to express their woes, their frustrations, their hopes, their dreams, and all of that? I think just because it doesn't meet the moral code that America professes to go by, it doesn't mean anything, especially if they've been left out of the moral concerns of America.

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Rico Nasty

Rico Nasty

Photo: Jason Carman

News

Welcome To Rico Nasty's 'Nightmare Vacation'

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As she gears up to release her debut album, 'Nightmare Vacation,' this fall, the Maryland-born rapper tells GRAMMY.com about the evolution of her sound, the cultural connection between her music and fashion and the new era of women-led rap music
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Sep 29, 2020 - 10:19 pm

Rico Nasty knows how to stand out. In an era filled with gray days and dark skies, she is the rainbow-bright, spiky-haired, fashion-forward loudmouth with nothing to hide and everything to gain. 

Since first breaking out in 2016 with her underground hits "iCarly" and "Hey Arnold," the Maryland-born rapper has become one of the most exciting, singular voices in today's hip-hop scene. Her unique take on the genre—melodic vibes and hard-edged flows over bright, bass-rattling trap beats, a style she's trademarked as "Sugar Trap"—has helped mutate rap music into all sorts of weird shapes and sounds. Rap music is all the better for it.

On her forthcoming debut album, Nightmare Vacation, Rico bridges her raw style with mainstream ambitions. Just take "iPhone" for a ride. Produced by fellow pop weirdo Dylan Brady, one half of experimental electronic duo 100 gecs, the song is an adrenaline rush of distorted hyperpop paired with Rico's washed-out, razor-sharp rhymes. In the middle of the track, she floats into soft R&B coos that can still cut like rusty blades. 

"I definitely feel like this is just a whole new vibe," Rico Nasty tells GRAMMY.com about the vision behind Nightmare Vacation. "It's a whole bunch of that overcoming, that, 'Wow, I didn't think I could do this.' And then actually do it and it sounds amazing. I look forward to that."

As she gears up to release Nightmare Vacation this fall, Rico Nasty checks in with GRAMMY.com to talk about the evolution of her sound on her debut album, the cultural connection between her music and fashion, and the new era of women-led rap music.

You found the name for your new album, Nightmare Vacation, while you were on a trip to Mexico last year. What's the significance behind the album's title?

I feel like life is dated by what a person thinks they should be. They find themselves in a "nightmare vacation." They find themselves surrounded by a bunch of the stuff that they thought they would love once they got it, but they realized that that wasn't what they wanted—it was what somebody else wanted. I felt like I dealt with a lot of that during [my trip] in Cabo, [Mexico]—just a whole lot of minding myself and growing up and realizing that can't nobody makes choices for me. I like what I like, I don't like what I don't like. I want in life what I want out of life.

I was listening to some of your older music, specifically your 2018 mixtape, Nasty, which is raw, it's hard and it's, well, pretty nasty. Nightmare Vacation has that same energy, but then you also have tracks like "Come Over" and "Loser," which show a little bit of a softer side with some R&B melodies. How would you say your sound has changed or evolved over the last couple of years, or since your last couple of releases?

I feel like I've been in the studio more than I ever have in my entire life. I was doing 72-hour sessions, even just literally experimenting and, obviously, drawing inspiration from the people that I love. I love Rihanna. I feel like she makes the best music, she has the best beats and melodies ever. I just tried to pull from my inspirations, but still keep it me, keep everything true to myself and ... everything that's been going on with my life.

You're doing something really unique and interesting with the rollout of Nightmare Vacation. With each of your announcements, you're sharing these personal letters in a series that you're calling the Nightmare Vacation Journal. Tell me about the journal series and the decision behind all of these personal letters.

I feel like before I dropped a song, I would get real nervous and I'd have all these thoughts. I get all tumbled up and emotional ... I never deal with a lot of other things. I can't really compare it to anything. Every time I drop a song, it's a process of letting go. I feel like whatever emotions I'm feeling the night before I drop those songs, I share my feelings. Whether or not they're meaningful messages or like ... I don't really know. It's just whatever comes to my mind, I feel like that's part of it. Every day, I might look back on this sh*t and say, "Why did I say that? Why did I think that? Why did I feel like that?" But it's just important to share that stuff so [my fans] know what type vibe I'm on when I'm releasing it.

In the first letter for the album's debut single, "iPhone," which you sent out in August, you wrote that you felt anxious about the announcement of Nightmare Vacation. Now that we're getting closer to the album's release, do you still feel anxious?

Yeah, I'm always anxious. I'm always anxious or excited ... I don't know what the word is. I'm always high-strung and ready for whatever ... As a child, I would never think that I would make an album, like a real album. I've toured and I've seen the world and I actually have fans—it's a dream come true. I think anybody would get anxious for sharing that with the world.

That's interesting because when I listen to your music, I don't hear a nervous or an anxious person. Your album, for example, has a track called "Own It," which is basically a self-empowerment anthem. Do you consider yourself confident?

Some days I'm confident. Some days I'm not. I feel like I'm confident when I make music.

When I hear you rapping, I feel like you very much are confident and you love yourself for who you are. How did you go about gaining that confidence? How did you learn to love yourself?

It's one of those things that I feel like, when you're born ... You have to just have an early sense of self-worth. When you're a kid, it's just certain choices that you make ... This is something small, but in high school, I was on this health kick, and I was going to the gym and I was in sports. I was serious about it. I was serious about taking care of myself. The older I've gotten, I became more aware of what it took to take care of myself. I feel like, when you strive for self-love and not perfection or all that other sh*t that you strive for, you just strive to be the best you, whatever you like. You gotta finesse it. It just makes you feel better about everything.

But like I said, you don't feel that way every day. I feel like anybody who's feeling great every day is a lunatic. You're a crazy person. There's no way everybody feels good every single day. There's no way, not one person. Everybody feel like sh*t. Some days I feel ugly. Some days I feel like the baddest person in the room. Some days I feel misunderstood. Some days I feel like everybody can relate to me ... It's up and down.

Read: Rico Nasty On Being Fearless & The Importance Of Highlighting Black Women's Emotions

Going back to your letters and journal, it all feels very intimate. They reveal a little vulnerability, and they're written directly to your fans. What's your relationship like with your fans, the so-called Nasty Mob?

I always tell them that our relationship is one-of-a-kind because they've never given me a hard time. I've never had a situation with my fans where I'm out and they're just giving me a hard time. Everybody who I come in contact with is just respectful and polite, dressed cool as hell, and their hair is fire and their makeup is fire. They're just a really cool individual. I always say that I would probably be friends with my fans if I was just a regular person, like if I just seen them out, I'd be like, "OK. You can hang with me. Let's get lit." It's just one big gang, one big mob.

Whenever I'm in the city, I personally invite certain fans that have come out to other shows. I just feel like I watched them growing. We all met when they was like 17 and I'm, like 19. My first time away from home, they first time ever going to a show. Just that human interaction is so important, especially now with coronavirus. I've cried a couple of times about missing them, like literally missing them, their presence, the way how I can get on stage and say, "Guys, I feel terrible today. Today has been the worst day ever." And they just scream at me and throw flowers at me, throw gifts at me, get on each other's shoulders, they mosh for me. It's one-of-a-kind, the love that I have for them. They're the best fans ever, I don't care what anybody says.

Rico Nasty

Rico Nasty | Photo: Jason Carman

It sounds like your fans are really excited about Nightmare Vacation. What do you think they're going to think about the album?

I just imagine a brain that's gray, and I just imagine a colorful brain after they see the album. [They're going] to be stimulated and well-fed and well-behaved. They probably won't be as mad at me as they are now. I feel like they're going to have a lot of fun with this album ... Fun by themselves, fun going for a walk, fun in the shower, fun driving alone. You don't even need a person to listen to this album with. You don't need nobody to party with. It's the party. This is the party. Put this b*tch on and let go. This the party in your room. You don't need nobody.

Read: Princess Nokia Is Making Space For People Who "Don't Have A Voice Yet" In Music

Speaking of having fun, did you have fun making Nightmare Vacation?

Yeah, I had fun making every single song on his album. But you know what I didn't have fun doing? I didn't have fun learning a whole lot of stuff. Obviously, every artist, you learn so much. You learn the ins and outs, you learn the ups and downs, you learn the pauses, the, "This might not be cleared. This might get cleared." This video and these dates and features and people available. You learn so much sh*t. So it definitely takes away [from] the glory of, "Wow this is great, great studio session!"

But that is what it is. It's Nightmare Vacation, man, f**k that. Everything's good, everything's bad—it's life. But you love life, right? You don't want to die. You want to see tomorrow. You might f***ing hit the lottery tomorrow. If you died, you wouldn't see that. You wouldn't see anything.

On an artistic level, does Nightmare Vacation feel different from what you've done before?

I definitely feel like this is just a whole new vibe. I never would have thought I could make a song like "Own It." "Own It" is so smooth, it's just different. The video is so couture and so camp, and it's different. It's a whole bunch of that overcoming, that, "Wow, I didn't think I could do this." And then actually do it and it sounds amazing. I look forward to that.

As you said, your "Own It" video shows some very futuristic fashion. You've got some strong looks on there. You have your hands in fashion: You have your own unique, very colorful look and style. You're going to be appearing and walking in Rihanna's Savage X Fenty show this week. What's the connection between fashion and your music?

I feel like I would not be who I was if the music didn't match the way I dress. [Giggles.] I feel like the music has to match your style ... I don't know, it doesn't have to. Look at J. Cole. J. Cole doesn't really go deep into that fashion sh*t. But his music is crazy, and it's a great reflection of him. But for me, my fashion is out there with big-ass boots, crazy eyeliner, leather, spikes. You listen to my music and that's what will probably be in the room if you were laying in the bed with me. [Laughts.].

I think [fashion is] a mirror almost, and I've used it like that. I've used it like a real-life mirror of how I'm feeling. Because sometimes I dress super hardcore, and some days I dress in dresses and I just look like a girly-girl, a whole lot of pink. Fashion is just one of those things that, honestly, the first thing that made feel accepted in any industry ever. 'Cause music was a little hesitant. I remember music was like, "OK, we like her. It's cool." But fashion was really like, "Oh my God, hop out." I made a lot of friends in fashion and a lot of people that keep me inspired.

Read: Leikeli47 On Honest Storytelling, Performing With A Mask, 'Acrylic' & More | Up Close & Personal

You mentioned spikes and leather, which makes me think about punk rock fashion. You've been called a rock star, a punk rock princess, a pop-punk princess. There are mosh pits at your shows. What's your relationship with rock and punk?

I am a fan of rock and punk music, but I feel like I'm really a fan of rap music. I'm a rapper, and I've used those other references, like rock, to blend with rap music. I feel like people kinda ignore that a little bit, but I love rap music. I always tell my manager and my friends, whenever they say stuff like that—it's been so many different titles for me that they're going to have to come up with my own word at this point ... There's punk, there's rock, there's hardcore.

I don't think there's anything ... It's just getting inspired from things that I've heard growing up. I might make a song that sound like that ... It's the voice and the cadence, I get, could be the rock stuff. But also, there's a lot of rockers that have had that crazy-ass voice. Obviously, the beats draw them in and that's what sticks in their head, like, "OK, she raps on this hard." There's a lot of music that people have fallen in love with that don't have anything to do with rock.

Do you believe in genres? Do you see them as an inspiration or a barrier?

I feel like genres definitely are needed ... But I don't know. This new generation, of course, we are just so obsessed with everything being our own and we being the creators of everything. I call my music "Sugar Trap." That's what I've always called it.

What is Sugar Trap?

You have the soft, beautiful, flowy vibes, melodic, but then you also have trap music like Chicago drill music, Atlanta trap music, Memphis trap music, little bit of California trap music. I mix everything. If the sound catches my ear, I mix it. So when we talk about rock, I just remember, when I made that song, I was listening to a lot of rock. I felt very alone and very alienated, so I made music to reflect that. That's why we get songs like "Rage."

Talking about rock, you've mentioned Joan Jett as a major inspiration to your music and your career. In many ways, you are now on that opposite end where you're inspiring a younger generation of rappers, artists and fans. Do you feel the weight of responsibility as a role model to your fans?

Nah, because I feel more of a weight or responsibility to be a role model towards my son. Just as long as I'm a good person to him, that's what really matters to me. Fans going to like what they like. I know some songs they don't like from me; they're allowed to feel that way. I just feel like, where I think my son is different, because they they always grow with me.

As far as the younger generation looking up to me, too, however they're inspired by me, I just want them to understand that they're their own person and they're going to live their own life. And though there might be a lot of situations that resemble one another, there's a lot of choices they're going to have to make that I ain't had to make, and things they going have to do that I ain't have to do. And they just going to have to respect the hustle. It's hard to get where I am. It's gonna be hard to get wherever they get. That's still weird having people look up to me because I take my pants off one leg at a time, and I'm just a regular person.

Your dad, who was a rapper, introduced you to hip-hop. Are you doing the same for your son? Are you introducing him to your music or rap or any other genres?

He be in the studio with me. He go places with me. He knows, he watch my music videos. He listens to his own stuff, though. It's very important that he's his own person, too, 'cause he's one-of-a-kind just by watching him make his own decisions. He listens to Aminé and Post Malone. His music choice is kinda cute. Justin Timberlake, too; he likes Justin Timberlake a lot.

But you know, he don't really listen to my stuff. He's around, he sees it. He was there for some video shoots. He was there for the "Countin Up" video shoot in New York. He's there for a lot of stuff; he's just behind the scenes, though. I definitely try to incorporate him in my life, but I ain't going to force it. He doesn't have to like music.

We are having a major cultural moment in hip-hop: Women are dominating rap, a genre that's always been very male-driven. You have Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion on top. Does it feel like we're in a new era where women are the new leaders in rap?

Yeah. It's kinda weird watching it become what it is become. This is what the next 10 years is going to look like. I feel like people like women's music more. [Laughs.] I don't know how to say that. A woman's voice, it is what it is. Whether it's rap or whatever it is, the confidence that women give other women, it's unmatched ... I feel like the world needs women's music to heal as well. The early 2000s had so much women's music and girls were so powerful, and the world just felt better. I'm praying for that.

There's a lot of momentum happening for women rappers right now. Where would you like it to go and what needs to happen to take it there?

Well, it's already in a great direction. Obviously, I would wish that people would stop being so judgemental. But it's one of those things where, just like everything else, if you just put it in their face enough, they'll get the point. They'll get it. They'll care. Just like there's a lot of male rappers who talk about certain things, and people just get their point. That's their life. That's what they do. Just give it, like I said, five years and it'll be what it is ... This is the new era of music: women rapping.

In order to make it happen, we just need ... I don't even know what to say. Women already supporting each other. We already cool. We already text each other when great sh*t happens for one another and we're like, "Oh my God, that's crazy!" We are all watching this unfold.

Even At The 'Top' Of The Rap Game, YoungBoy Never Broke Again Still Isn't Satisfied

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Hit-Boy attends the 2020 GRAMMY Awards

Hit-Boy attends the 2020 GRAMMY Awards

Photo: Frazer Harrison/Getty Images for The Recording Academy

 
News

Hit-Boy On Producing Big Sean's 'Detroit 2' And Nas' 'King's Disease,' Carving His Own Path As An Artist

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The two-time GRAMMY-winning superproducer tells GRAMMY.com about his creative process behind some of the biggest hip-hop albums of 2020 and how he's paving a path as a rapper in his own right
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Sep 5, 2020 - 5:19 pm

Hit-Boy might be music's busiest person in 2020. Across a four-month timespan, the two-time GRAMMY-winning superproducer quarterbacked four of the biggest projects in rap this year. In May, he dropped the fourth and final installment of his The Chauncey Hollis Project solo series, followed by Also Known As Courtesy Of Half-A-Mil, his collaborative album with Dom Kennedy, in July. He followed up with King's Disease, the 13th album from rap icon Nas, in August, and Big Sean's fresh-out-the-oven Detroit 2, released Friday (Sept. 4)—both of which he executive-produced. 

But for Hit-Boy, it's just another day in the office.

"It's too many artists trying to tap in for me to just work on one thing at a time, but I still am able to give my focus," he tells GRAMMY.com on the eve of the release of Detroit 2. "It's like quantity and quality. I don't know how to explain it right now."

With his mind on his music and his music on his mind, Hit-Boy is used to juggling a packed calendar in the studio. He's kept a 24/7-schedule since first breaking into the industry in the late 2000s. He's since become one of the go-to producers in the game, creating hits for everyone from Kanye West to Beyoncé to Mariah Carey. The versatile creative sees genre-hopping as a learning experience.

"I just get to learn more about different ways people make music," he says of his broad production style. "People in the pop world are totally different from people who make beats for Big Sean and JAY-Z … I honestly just like to learn, no matter what type of music it is."

Hit-Boy, who started off rapping before transitioning to making beats, is also busy carving his own lane as an artist. His new solo album, The Chauncey Hollis Project, and his team-up with Dom Kennedy, Also Known As, see him switching from behind the board as a producer to in front of the mic as a rapper. It's the latest progression in Hit-Boy's ever-evolving creative journey.

"I'm gonna just keep developing, just keep working, man," he says of his next steps. "It's a never-ending process for me."

GRAMMY.com caught up with Hit-Boy to talk about his creative process behind Big Sean's Detroit 2 and Nas' King's Disease, how the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted his artistic approach and how he's paving a path as a rapper in his own right.

You've worked with just about everyone in music, from Kanye West to Jennifer Lopez to Beyoncé. Do you ever get nervous or anxious when you work with a huge superstar?

Earlier in my career, yeah. I definitely used to get a little nervous, but I always just believed I had something, even if all of it wasn't great. I know I have something in the batch that was going to catch people's attention. That's the same method I take on now, but I've just advanced so much at just being a musician and locking in on making beats ... Now that I got that science figured out, I'm just on damn near autopilot right now. I'm just getting placement after placement.

It sounds like you're in high demand. How do you juggle it all? Are you working on multiple projects at once? Or do you stay exclusively focused on one album or one project from beginning to end?

It's too many artists trying to tap in for me to just work on one thing at a time, but I still am able to give my focus. Like with Nas' album, King's Disease, we made time for our sessions, made sure there wasn't too many people around and locked in. My relationship with [Big] Sean—I've got a bunch of stuff on Detroit 2. I was able to still be in the zone, working on his sh*t, then also do a Nas album in the middle of that, and then work on Polo G's album and work on all this other sh*t I got going.

I feel like my method is like: Get to the studio before people show up, make as many tight beats as I can, all type of styles. Then whoever comes through that day, I'm going to have at least one or two that's going to catch your ear ...

It comes from me having my label deal and more so trying to focus on, I feel like, what was too many things at one time, which was trying to be an artist myself, signing a bunch of artists, trying to be a hot producer, trying to produce for everybody at once. That was too much, but now ... I work with whoever comes in my realm and respects what I do ... It's like quantity and quality. I don't know how to explain it right now.

Read: Lil Mosey On The Staying Power of "Blueberry Faygo," Life As A Teen Rap Sensation And Getting The Co-Sign From President Barack Obama 

You recently executive-produced Nas' latest album, King's Disease. Can you talk about the creative and production process behind that album?

I mean, obviously he's Nas. You know what I'm saying? Certain people know me—I'm Hit-Boy. But it's like, let's remove that and let's just try to make songs, let's just try to make records ... You could still pop your sh*t and talk about what you want to, but at the same time, let's just make this as enjoyable as possible. When we was going in, we just was letting the room lead the way and the energy was taking us to every next piece of the puzzle.

I just knew that it was a high standard with this project. People was going to really click play on this, and if it was whack, they was gonna let me know. So for so many people I respect, like younger producers like Metro [Boomin], like Pi'erre [Bourne], Tay Keith, and then I got people like Timbaland, Swizz [Beatz] and all these OGs also reaching out [and] just showing respect—that just shows me [that] this hit the core of music lovers. People who really listening, they understanding this is really quality sh*t.

You also executive-produced the new Big Sean album, Detroit 2. What sort of vibe or sound did you try to create on that album?

I just wanted everything to sound modern, even like some of the soulful [songs]. The song we dropped with [Nipsey Hussle], rest in peace, "Deep Reverence"—it's like a real throwback, Roc-A-Fella-ish sample vibe, but then the drums sound modern; they sound new. So I kinda kept that through the whole project. It's just remnants of music we enjoyed, but it's placed in a modern way, so definitely just trying to make sure it was just a fresh sound.

You mentioned a bunch of artists coming into your studio. Are you currently producing with artists in-person? Or are you working mostly virtually and remotely due to the COVID-19 pandemic?

We started the Nas album before the pandemic hit. That's what's crazy: We named it King's Disease before we even knew about the corona. Giving us that time during the pandemic when it was super shut down, we got to really sit and just really produce the record like how we wanted to. That was a good thing.

I'm kinda doing it both ways. People been hitting me [up] crazy. I've been emailing stuff out, but we always get the better connection when it's in-person. Me and [Big] Sean, we worked on all our stuff just face-to-face. I'm cooking beats from scratch. We really just building it from the ground up, so it's always good to do it that way. But if you do have to email, there's nothing wrong with that either.

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What do you lose and what do you gain from producing virtually and working remotely compared to working with someone in-person?

You just get more of a connection when you work in-person. You're able to get that instant feedback ... It just makes it easier to navigate. When you [send it], you're just kind of shooting blind and just hoping that the person connects with the beat you sent. It's just two different things. They both worked out for me, personally, I have to say. I feel like my best beats come when I'm just dolo, just vibing out, zoning out and just letting whatever come to me. But I also been tapping into just making a lot more beats with people, too. It's just all music at the end of the day.

Behind The Board: Hit-Boy 

Speaking of the pandemic, we've been in quarantine for a long time now. You're in and out of it in your studio. How has this pandemic and quarantine era impacted your creativity?

I honestly feel like I'm more creative than ever ... My son was born right when we went into quarantine, within a day or two. It's just been good for me to have his energy and be able to spend more time with him and not have to fly out [to] no places and doing even more than I'm already doing. I feel like it's just been a blessing for me, for real. It's just looking good, so I'm trying to keep the energy up.

In addition to your production work, you're also an artist. You're able to switch from behind the board as a producer to in front of the mic as a rapper. What kind of challenges come with that creative duality?

Man, it's kind of all just music to me ... Like sometimes, I might not even rap on my own beat; I get beats from other people. I'm able to just separate it that way. I'm not looking at it like, "Oh, I'm Hit-Boy. I'm about to make a song." I'm just like, "I'm about to say what needs to be said on [this beat]." Then when I make the beat, it kinda make me even more tapped in because I can get into the Hit-Boy bag and then just still give it that honest perspective.

What are you developing to carve a lane for yourself as Hit-Boy, the artist?

I'm just recording ... I put out The Chauncey Hollis Project. I did that in installments. I put out three songs at a time until it equaled 12 songs. That was just a moment for me, just being honest, just talking about my life, where I've been, where I'm going, what I'm on now. Just more of that, you know what I'm saying? More projects, more and more people featuring on my music now because I'm working with so many artists. They be hearing my sh*t. They like, "OK, I want to hop on this." I'm gonna just keep developing, just keep working, man. It's a never-ending process for me.

As a producer, you're switching from producing harder rappers like Travis Scott and Clipse to pop stars like Ariana Grande and Selena Gomez. Creatively, what do you gain from jumping around genres like that?

I just get to learn more about different ways people make music. People in the pop world are totally different from people who make beats for Big Sean and JAY-Z and stuff like that, for the most part. There are some people that can hop in multiple lanes, but not everybody can do that. I honestly just like to learn, no matter what type of music it is.

What are some other genres that you are curious to explore that you haven't explored yet?

Like some hardcore rock 'n' roll sh*t. Who knows, man? Country, I haven't done no serious country records. I'm down to just try whatever, as long as it makes sense and I could still really feel the music.

We're almost at the end of the year, which is crazy to think about. What do you have left in the pipeline for 2020?

We've got, obviously tonight, that Big Sean, Detroit 2. Then I got an album with Benny The Butcher that's dropping; we got some dope features on that, some dope, soulful production. I feel like that was the thing with the Nas album. People saw I was producing that, they was like, "He known for club records and 'N****s in Paris.' But what can he give Nas?" 

And then once people heard it, it was like, "OK, we get it now." I feel like with the Benny project, it's going to be [an] even deeper thing. He's a new artist, so it's just a blank canvas to be able to paint something that could be something crazy.

Read: Aminé Talks New Album 'Limbo,' Portland Protests And Black Lives Matter

How do you compare working with newer artists like Benny The Butcher and superstars like Beyoncé and Kanye West?

They both hungry for this sh*t. Beyoncé, she work like a new artist, too. But Benny, he got some crazy, hungry—just really coming from the streets and coming from his background. For him, coming to the studio, he be like, "Man, this sh*t fly that we in the studio together." I feel the same way. He really taking advantage of the moment. When we in there, when I'm playing some sh*t, he understands what's going on. He just attacking everything with the highest intensity.

So we should keep an eye on Benny The Butcher is what you're saying.

One-thousand percent.

You released the fourth and final installment of your The Chauncey Hollis Project solo series in May, followed by Also Known As Courtesy Of Half-A-Mil, your collab album with Dom Kennedy, in July. What do those two albums offer as separate entities?

The music I make with Dom has just got its own specific feeling. And I went for just soulful, just giving people an honest me on my project. That's what I always try to do on every song. But with [Also Known As], we always just kind of create a vibe, something that females can mess with, and then you can just ride to it ... We always just creating music. We always just recording ...

Those two albums put you directly in the artist seat. Where can we expect those two artist projects to go next?

Honestly, I can't even call it, bro, because I was just moving off instinct. When I decided to drop the first installment [of The Chauncey Hollis Project], the first three songs, it was the night before. I just had recorded the songs, started mixing them, and I was like, "Man, I want to drop this sh*t." I made the decision [to drop it] Wednesday, [then] dropped it Thursday ... 

I still got people hitting me, people DMing me daily, listening to The Chauncey Hollis Project, listening to [Also Known As], people in they ride playing it. It's like, "OK, we headed in the right direction." So I can't even call it, man. You never know how this thing is going to go. But I'm just going to continue to make the music that I feel, and hopefully people connect with it.

Go with the flow.

Yup. We one song, one project at a time.

Are you always thinking about music, 24/7?

I am, man. That goes back to when I said I had my artist [deal] and I was working with Kanye and I was working with Beyoncé and JAY-Z. I had a point where I was like, "Man, I'm definitely not even taking no sessions if it's not Kanye, JAY-Z or Beyoncé." That's a crazy thing to be able to say within your lifetime. I'm not going to say it hurt me, but I feel like I should have been spreading my sound out a little bit more, especially with not having a tag and not having my brand all the way up where I needed it to be.

Now I feel like I've been playing catch-up. That's why I was able to do a bunch of songs on [Big] Sean's sh*t, do a bunch of sh*t on [Nas'] King's Disease, because I'm seeing the field different now. Once I catch that connection with an artist, it's over—we just tapping in. It's something about the type of grooves and the type of beats I'm making right now that makes people want to make songs, so [I'm] really trying to take this sh*t to a different level.

Meet The First-Time GRAMMY Nominee: "Suge" Producer Jetsonmade On Working With DaBaby & Hyping Up The Carolinas

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YoungBoy Never Broke Again

YoungBoy Never Broke Again

Photo: Tyler Shields

News

Even At The 'Top' Of The Rap Game, YoungBoy Never Broke Again Still Isn't Satisfied

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After topping the U.S. charts three times in less than a year, the fast-rising Louisiana rapper tells GRAMMY.com about the breakout success of his new album, 'Top,' the inspiration he finds in his young kids and his close relationship with his fans
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Sep 28, 2020 - 3:51 pm

When it comes to interviews, YoungBoy Never Broke Again isn't much of a talker—unless he's chatting about his kids. 

Anyone who's been following the fast-rising rapper knows he shares a special bond with his five young children—he has one little girl on the way, he confirms to GRAMMY.com—who've made regular appearances in his music and videos. 

This past Father's Day (June 21), he released the video for "death enclaimed" in which he's seen spending time with his kids—dancing in the kitchen, combing their hair, playing together on the beach. The clip is interwoven with shots of YoungBoy brandishing racks of cash, guns and luxury cars as he roams his lavish home. 

In the song, he raps about connecting with his youngest son—"He too young to understand, but we still having our one-on-ones"—as well as his ongoing paranoia about being killed in his own home. 

In August, he followed up with "Kacey Talk," the second single off his newly released album, Top. The song features vocal contributions from YoungBoy's son, and the track's eponym, Kacey, who's also featured in the single's official music video. The visual sees a high-rolling YoungBoy making big bank at a casino, signing record deals and spattering neon-bright paint on empty walls with his two young children. 

Whether he's playing businessman or family man, YoungBoy is confidently beaming throughout the whole video. 

"I couldn't get him to stop crying so I had to hold him while I recorded," YoungBoy tells GRAMMY.com about the making of "Kacey Talk." "And it's pretty cool because he actually talked like right when ... I was thinking of him to speak, he did it. So yeah, he's amazing. That's Kacey."

Read: Lil Mosey On The Staying Power of "Blueberry Faygo," Life As A Teen Rap Sensation And Getting The Co-Sign From President Barack Obama

Despite a hectic and busy schedule of recording and releasing new music year after year, he cites his family as one of his main career drivers. 

"This what makes it, that's what creates everything about it," he says about balancing life as a full-time father and artist. "That's what makes it fun. That's what gives you the drive to get up and do more. I ain't never really satisfied. So that's why I am how I am."

That same sense of perennial ambition is what's helped the emerging artist skyrocket from a teenage rap sensation from Baton Rouge, La., to a platinum-selling hip-hop kingpin who's claimed the throne time and time again. Within less than a year, he's topped the all-genre Billboard 200 chart a total of three times via a pair of mixtapes—AI YoungBoy 2 last October and 38 Baby 2 in May—and his most recent album, Top. (Still Flexin, Still Steppin, his first of two mixtapes in 2020, also came close to topping the chart, bowing at No. 2 in March.)

While this "content-deluge strategy," as The New York Times writes, of frequently releasing new music and full-on projects has helped YoungBoy dominate the rap game, his relentless approach to creating is less about some marketing grand design and more of an emotional reaction to the moments he's living in now.  

"My brain ain't on standstill," YoungBoy explains. "My music is kind of my life, so you know the music ain't going to be at no standstill. I'll always feel like I got something to speak on or to say to get my point across. I'm always, like, in a moment with my music or with my thoughts or with my releases. That's kind of how I do that connection with my fans."

YoungBoy's rabid fan base is also key to his breakout success: After announcing the release of Top in August, the album topped the Apple Music charts based solely on preorders, according to Billboard. The impressive feat is a direct reflection of just how much his hungry fans follow his every step. 

But for YoungBoy, his direct relationship with his fans goes beyond streaming numbers and chart placements. 

"They mean everything," he says of his fans. "I always is true. I never hid nothing with them from the jump. So it's a reimbursement cycle going on with us, I guess. It's spiritual: I dish out pain, they dish out what they dish. But dish out the negative or positive, either way it go, I'm still noticed by them. I'm thankful for that—bet. They giving back and I'm giving back. It's a big cycle."

But as YoungBoy's star continues to rise in the public forum, so, too, does his personal life, which has become a constant source of legal issues, including multiple arrests and serious charges. Last August, he was placed on house arrest after violating his probation stemming from a 2016 shooting, according to Billboard. (He was allowed to record new music from his home and post it to YouTube while on house arrest, Baton Rouge, La., daily newspaper The Advocate reports.)

Much like YoungBoy keeps his struggles and intimate experiences at the fore in his music, he's used his legal battles and stints in jail as inspiration for his art. Last September, he released "House Arrest Tingz," a featured track on Top, whose video chronicles his experience on house arrest. 

"I really feel like it kind of trapped me because it was tough for me to make music in there," he says of his house arrest spell. "It really kind of trained me. I had a big writer's block. But I guess there's the whole thing of trying to get yourself together. I don't know, but it was a f***ed-up position they had me in."

While YoungBoy Never Broke Again remains one of the top rappers in the scene today—Top currently sits at No. 3 on the latest Billboard 200 chart, behind the late Pop Smoke, at the time of this writing—he "ain't satisfied" yet. 

"It's good. It's a big step forward," he says of his recent successes. 

And as for the reception of Top, he only asks fans and listeners for one thing.

"I don't want them to do sh*t but respect it. It's simple as that."

DaBaby Talks 'BLAME IT ON BABY (DELUXE),' Black Lives Matter Remix Of "ROCKSTAR" And Rap's Obsession With Deluxe Albums

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Lil Mosey

Lil Mosey

Photo: Jeremy Deputat

News

Lil Mosey On The Staying Power of "Blueberry Faygo," Life As A Teen Rap Sensation And Getting The Co-Sign From President Barack Obama

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The breakout rapper tells GRAMMY.com about the life lessons he's learned since dropping out of high school to chase his hip-hop dreams
John Ochoa
GRAMMYs
Sep 3, 2020 - 10:30 am

Lil Mosey lives the type of high life most 18-year-olds can only daydream about. At the tender age of 15, the Seattle-bred rapper garnered worldwide internet acclaim with his 2017 debut single, "Pull Up." The track, which has since accumulated more than 33 million YouTube views for its official music video, went gold this past May. Not bad for a teenager.

But in Lil Mosey's eyes, living life in the fast lane at such a young age wasn't a choice—it was his only reality. 

"I feel like growing up, struggling and surviving at a young age, I realized, 'Well, I don't have it like other people do, so I got to figure it out. I got to do something so my mom, my family don't got to worry about nothing," he tells GRAMMY.com. "So at a young age, I started realizing some stuff that other people don't realize … My mind's a lot older than 18.

Propelled by the success of "Pull Up," Lil Mosey dropped out of high school while in the 10th grade and relocated to Los Angeles to chase his music dreams. Things started to move quickly: He was handling "real-life business things" at 15 and taking major label meetings on his 16th birthday. 

Fast-forward to 2018: Lil Mosey's debut album, Northsbest, officially introduced the then-16-year-old sensation to the world. The gold-certified album spawned the platinum single "Noticed." Lil Mosey had arrived.

The fast-rising rapper, who just hit legal age of majority in January, returns in 2020 with Certified Hitmaker (AVA Leak), an expanded version of his 2019 sophomore album, Certified Hitmaker. Released last month, AVA Leak is fueled by breakout single and song-of-the-summer contender "Blueberry Faygo," a platinum-selling Top 10 U.S. hit; "Top Gone" with Lunay; and "Back At It" featuring Lil Baby, the latter of which earned an official shout-out from former President Barack Obama on his 2020 summer playlist. 

"I'm just a little-ass kid, and a grown-ass president know about me. That's crazy," Lil Mosey exclaimed. 

GRAMMY.com checked in with Lil Mosey to talk about the staying power of "Blueberry Faygo," his experience as a teenage rap sensation and the life lessons he's learned along the way. 

What's it like growing up so fast and blowing up so big at such a young age?

I feel like growing up, struggling and surviving at a young age, I realized, "Well, I don't have it like other people do, so I got to figure it out. I got to do something so my mom, my family don't got to worry about nothing."

So at a young age, I started realizing some stuff that other people don't realize. And then sh*t happened when I was like 15. I moved out to L.A. by myself and I started dealing with ... real-life business things that grown-ups did at 15. My mind's a lot older than 18.

Do you ever feel like you're missing out on "normal teenager stuff"? Like prom, bullsh*tting with your high school homies, getting in trouble in school?

No, I ain't even going to lie. I stopped going to school and stuff. I never even went to the school dance or nothing like that. I ain't even miss it.

You're not in school?

No. I'm tired of going to school. I plan on going back to school ... Once my music career started blowing when I was 15 years old, I said, "F**k it, I'm going to L.A." I dropped out, but I was doing online school for a little. I started touring, I started losing focus on that sh*t, but I'm definitely gonna go back and get my diploma.

When did you realize you wanted to be a rapper?

Probably when I was like 13.

How did you get to that decision?

When I got into music, I just started watching how [people] were really living. I started falling in love with that high life, what the lifestyle could be like. It's legal, so I was like, "This is a good way for me to live my dreams." So I was like, "If they could do it, I could do it, too."

So I just did it. Started getting better. Everything you do, you got to put 100 percent into it. If you don't put 100 percent into it, it's not going to work out like you want it to. I did that every day at home ... Woke up, went to school late, left school early and just went home, started working. If I wasn't working, then I wasn't making money.

Was your family supportive of your decision to follow that path? What did your mom think when you told her you were going to quit school and follow your rap career?

She didn't want me to. It took me a minute to convince her. I was telling her, "Trust me, it's going to work out." I started to convince her. Really, I just had to just tell her, "I know you don't want me to go, but I'mma just go, because I got you. I'mma let you know, it's going to work out. I know it's going to work out."

And then she let me go, and I just left ... She started to come around with me, taking label meetings. She's like "Yeah, you did it."

What does she think of your career choice now?

She just wants me to be the best person I can be. If I'm happy, she's gonna be happy.

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Your career took off in 2018 when you were around 16.

Yeah, it really took off right when I was like 15, just 'bout to turn 16. I was in New York taking label meetings on my birthday ... It was like a good-ass birthday present for me.

So you're 15 going on 16 when things started popping off for you. When was the moment when you realized you had "made it"?

I mean, there's been times where I've said, "I made it." But at the end of the day, I know I'm not where I want to be. I know I can do better. I can be bigger than this. I can make more money than this. So once I'm to the point where I'm really, like, I'm doing this for fun, it's not even because I'm worried about, "I need to get here." It's just more fun, because I'm already where I want to be. That's when I'mma be like, "Alright, I'm where I wanna be."

What does success look like to you? Is it money? Streams? Touring?

I already realized money don't buy happiness. If people say that, then they lost; they don't know what they're talking about. Money can help you and your family, which will make you happy. But at the end of the day, there's always something that can actually make you real happy inside ... Yeah it feels good, but with money, there comes a lot of problems that make you unhappy, so you got to find other things that make you happy.

Music, that's probably the biggest thing that makes me happy. Once I found music, I got addicted to music, like it was a drug or something. Music—that's all I do. If I'm not recording, I'm making beats. If I'm not making beats, then I'm probably worried about some money situation, like, "How can I get my money?"

In between when things started to pop off for you in 2018 to now in 2020, what have been some of the life lessons you've learned in those two years?

Stack your money and flip your money. It's always been, like, flip your money back. Once I got my first check, I was like, "Damn, I'm up right now." But then I realized, you can't really have too much stuff, but you can. It gets to a point where it's like, if you don't wear that jacket, what's the point of having that jacket? So if I know I'm not going to even wear that sh*t more than a couple of times, then I'm not even going to buy that. I just started moving smarter ... with my money. I started thinking, "This n***a got a billion dollars. He's moving like this? Alright, well I need to start moving a little different."

I'm a rapper, it's sort of different because I gotta be an influence to everybody ... At the end of the day, if you got money and you're going to keep growing and get more money, that's not a good thing to worry about. The clothes, that sh*t's cool. But a billion dollars, that sounds a lot better. What are you going to do with a billion dollars? Make more money, and you got money to just buy whatever the hell you want to get, until you get to the point where you're like, "I'll buy whatever I feel like and it won't even pain me." 'Cause money goes fast. You start spending and it goes fast.

People are calling your track, "Blueberry Faygo," one of the unofficial songs of the summer, which is hitting a little different this year since we're in a pandemic. Do you think we're going to get an official song of the summer this year?

Fo' sho', 'cause people still care about summer. Regardless, people still going to be sharing with their friends, even if they inside. Summer's almost over, though. You right, actually; you speaking some facts right now. I don't even know if there is a song of the summer ...

Do you think "Blueberry Faygo" will take the song of the summer throne?

Sh*t, hopefully. That's for the people to decide. Definitely it hit ... At the end of the summer, it might get that title.

You released "Blueberry Faygo" in February. It hit top 10 in the U.S., and it keeps sneaking back up in the charts a few months after its release. What is it about "Blueberry Faygo" that resonates so much with rap fans?

I honestly think it's just a feel-good song. It's something fresh, some sh*t nobody heard before ...

I feel like that's what people need right now.

Yeah, in these times, that's what I be trying to spread a lot. I've got some songs that I haven't put out yet that I'm speaking on how my life has been. I like having fun with my music, so if it's not talking about having fun … then it's going to be about something real.

The 2020 XXL Freshman Class dropped last month. You were featured in the 2019 XXL Freshman Class. What do you think about this year's group of artists?

There's a lot of artists on the list. I f**k with Fivio [Foreign]. Polo G, he's hard as f**k, too. I really didn't pay attention too much. I only seen a couple of freestyles and stuff, but I seen a few of them, definitely. Polo G, he definitely going to be a big-ass artist soon; he already a big artist. There's a bunch of artists on there I actually don't know. They picked a pretty good list.

When you were growing up, did you look up to the XXL Freshman Class?

I watched YG on XXL when he was coming up, and now he's who he is now. Mac Miller, he was on XXL ... Being on XXL is ... it's crazy. Seeing me, DaBaby, Megan Thee Stallion—we all went up. There was a lot of people on that list that went up. It goes to show.

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You've worked with a lot of other big artists like Lil Baby, Gunna, Trippie Redd. What's the first thing you look for when you're picking your collaborators?

Do I genuinely like the music? If I don't really genuinely like the music, then I wouldn't even probably work with the person. It's really just about the music for me—if I like the song, I like the person's music. After that, do I like them as a person? Are they cool? They can be the biggest person in the world, [but] if I don't fuck with who they are and I don't like they music, then I won't even want to make a song with them.

While we're on that topic, who are some of the next-wave rappers on your radar right now? Who are some other artists you want to work with in the future?

BandKidjay, he's definitely one of 'em, rising artist. Jae Lynx, he's from Rhode Island; he's fire ... I wanna work with Drake; that'd be crazy. We would make a hit together, I already know we would. And Ariana Grande; that'd be lit.

Did you see that former President Barack Obama plugged your song, "Back At It," on his 2020 summer playlist?

Yeah, that was crazy, man! Shout out Barack Obama, man!

First of all, who knew Barack Obama was up on the rap game like that, right? That is probably the biggest co-sign of all time. What did that moment mean to you?

Yeah, I'm just a little-ass kid, and a grown-ass president know about me. That's crazy.

What do you have on deck for the rest of 2020 and beyond?

I'm working on my next project … a mixtape. You'll probably be seeing some singles from me coming soon.

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