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The Roots of 'Roots': Sepultura's Game-Changing Metal Masterpiece At 25

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For the first time since 1997, all four classic members of Sepultura have come together (albeit remotely) to speak at length about 'Roots' and their groundbreaking exploration of their indigenous connections
Ron Hart
GRAMMYs
Apr 9, 2021 - 4:00 am

Upon calling former Sepultura drummer Iggor Cavalera about the 25th anniversary of the Brazilian metal band's 1996 LP Roots, it's impossible not to notice the image that pops up on his WhatsApp profile. It's a tattoo of MF DOOM's mask; he recently got it to honor the beloved and enigmatic rap supervillain upon his passing this past Halloween. Talk swiftly turns to the work of globetrotting hip-hop producer Madlib and his profound knowledge of Brazilian music.

"I've seen Madlib a few times in Sao Paulo," the drummer tells GRAMMY.com. "And I knew he used to go there a lot to look for records and find all this obscure Brazilian stuff. It is so cool to see how he has his own take on how to make this stuff from the '60s and '70s somehow sound modern. Even on the DOOM stuff they did together [2004's Madvillainy], there are a lot of Brazilian references in there, especially from the psychedelic rock side of it."

The revelation of Iggor being a fan of Madlib and DOOM should come as no surprise to any fan of Roots. On that album, the group's classic lineup—guitarist Andreas Kisser, bassist Paulo Pinto Jr., Cavalera and his brother Max on lead throat—fully embraced their Brazilian heritage. They did this by deeply incorporating elements of their country's rich music history into some of the most brutal death metal to emerge from the 1990s.

For the first time since 1997, all four classic members of Sepultura have come together (albeit remotely) to speak at length with GRAMMY.com about Roots and their groundbreaking experiments with their indigenous past—which helped make the album the most polarizing and beloved LP in the band's canon.

"I remember when Roots first came out, it felt like a shock to the system," the singer recalls. "The biggest newspaper in Brazil is the Folha de São Paulo, and they gave us a full-page article. And the writer wrote into the story, 'The samba of the future is metal.' It was so cool to read how they were comparing—how the power of metal and the power of samba are very similar. I remember when we were kids, we used to see the samba schools practicing. And when you see 80 or 90 drummers playing all at once, it's as heavy as a metal band—I promise you."

The elder Cavalera got the ball rolling on the album's centerpiece "Itsari," which found the band venturing deep into the state of Mato Grosso on the eastern end of Brazil. They went there to collaborate with the elusive Xavante, one of the oldest and (sadly) most exploited tribes in the country's savanna region.

The inspiration for "Istari" came from the film At Play In The Fields Of The Lord. "The plot of the movie is about these two Americans who go into the rainforest," he explains. "At first, they are supposed to go and drop bombs to scare away the Indians. But one of them, who is Native American, gets drunk and flies a plane to parachute into the rainforest and start living with the Indians. For some reason, the movie made a huge impact on me, and a lightbulb came on in my head about wanting to record with an indigenous tribe.

"I felt like this is what I am here for, to brave this new frontier," Max continues. "I remember my wife and manager telling me, 'You guys aren't Michael Jackson; you don't have that kind of budget!' But we made it work. I researched for contacts and found this lady Angela, who worked with all the Indian tribes in Brazil. The tribe I originally wanted to record was Kayapos, but they would have just killed all of us [laughs]. They don't f**k around."

However, getting to the Natives and their hidden world proved to be an adventure even before the group boarded the small Cessna to traverse over the jungle.

"At the time I was really afraid of flying," admits Pinto. "Especially in a small plane going over the jungle. The only thing I could see was a green carpet. But after this trip, I started to lose my fear of flying, because I was sitting in the cockpit with the pilot, who was explaining everything to me and how the plane works. There was a lot of turbulence because of the jungle's humidity—and the cabin was not pressurized, so the pilot was talking me through it. It was amazing how he was able to find the tribe just by coordinates."

"A lot of people would go to the Xavantes tribe and treat them almost like they were in a zoo," Iggor says. "It was like you were just this spectator. We, on the other hand, were there to collaborate with them and to exchange cultural ideas. We also wanted to do this as a way of representing them outside of Brazil."

"Most people in Brazil don't interact with the tribes," Max adds. "But my whole life I've been fascinated with them. In fact, on my mother's side, my great-great-grandmother was a true native. She was from the rainforest."

"We were told we could not bring any type of alcohol, no drugs," Pinto Jr. added. "We could only stay outside the limits of the tribe, and we could only cross into their land if we were escorted by one of the natives. For the longest time, it seemed like every time the white man came through it f**ked them up. The natives were always getting screwed. Most people don't seem to respect them, especially the government. So when they have this area that they own and is protected by law, they are very cautious."

Yet it wasn't before long that these amicable outsiders became fast friends with the tribe. A promotional film for Roots now available on YouTube chronicles Sepultura's two days with the Xavantes tribe. And even if you don't fully understand Portuguese, there is nothing lost in translation in the body language between these four young men and these ancient people they learned about in their studies and on the national currency. 

In this footage, the two parties form a human connection in real-time. The Xavantes fully welcome Kisser, Pinto and the Cavaleras into their culture with open hearts and minds.  They encourage them to participate in their dance and prayer rituals and adorning them with their own body paint. Some moments of the film are moving in that regard; the positive impact on the trip indeed remains palpable in their voices.

"It was a life-changing experience, not only as a musician but as a human," admits Kisser, who, along with Pinto Jr., are the only remaining members left in the incarnation of Sepultura who recorded Roots. "It was a privilege to have this interaction with them and earn their attention and respect. We were so excited to be there. I think we spent 48 hours there, and I didn't sleep one minute. There was so much natural adrenaline going through me. At night, I heard sounds I never heard in my life. It's amazing how it created these new sensations in us and new feelings that came out of our music. 

"I think that was the first time I truly realized that time was just a concept," Kisser continues to GRAMMY.com. "The way that they relate to nature and with the animals, the way they relate with the sun. I saw my watch lose all of its meaning because it's only connected to a concept. It was a very powerful thing to observe and see these people at peace with themselves. There was no rush or anxiety to pay bills or go to church. They are a very free people."

"When we were there with the Xavantes, we were writing a song together in real-time," Iggor explains. "So in order for them to figure out what they were going to sing about, they needed to wait until one of the elders had a dream. That's the only way they feel they can write music—if it was in a dream. So we had to wait a whole day for an elder to have that dream and the inspiration for the song, which served as a spiritual connection with us."

"We are all very grateful we were able to bring that vibe to the record," Pinto Jr. tells us. "We achieved a very special moment with that connection with the Xavantes. We didn't want to go through any politicians to make it happen. It was 100 percent cultural and spiritual, and I think we achieved the purity of that purpose."

The other major factor that gives Roots its multicultural perspective is the involvement of renowned Brazilian percussion master Carlinhos Brown, though the group reveals he wasn't their first choice.

"The first idea we had was to work with Naná Vasconcelos," explains Pinto Jr., referring to the renowned Brazilian percussionist who has played alongside Don Cherry, Brian Eno and Pat Metheny. "Sadly, he wasn't available at the time. But he was the main guy we initially thought about because he was so highly regarded as a percussionist. He was one of the masters."

"For us, percussion was always heavy in our lives, certainly heavier than any metal band," adds Kisser. "If you go to the Carnival in Rio and see the parades with these 500-person drum ensembles, there's no way to describe the feeling of hearing them all together. All we wanted to do was put heavy guitars over them. But then, of course, we began to explore different rhythms and harmonies."

As it turned out, the Bahia-born Brown, who has worked with such Brazilian legends as Caetano Veloso, Sergio Mendes, João Gilberto, Djavan, and João Bosco in addition to his own successful career as a star in his own right, proved to be a perfect match. 

"We had the pleasure to work with Carlinhos, who is a genius," Kisser says, aglow. "A fantastic mind, a fantastic soul; he was so crucial for us on Roots."

"We wound up meeting Carlinhos at an MTV Awards show here in Brazil," explains Pinto Jr. "We met him through the MTV director who was a good friend of ours. We had discussed with her what we were looking to do on Roots and she said, 'Oh you should meet Carlinhos, he's on the show as well.' So we got to talking and found out quickly how very well we jammed together."

"Out of all the countries in South America, Brazil has the biggest population of Africans, and that is something we wanted to convey on Roots," Iggor says. "Bringing in someone like Carlinhos Brown, who represented the whole African side of Brazil, was very important for us in order to portray those themes and ideals on this record. It wasn't just about the roots of native Brazilians, but also those who came after them as well."

"When we met him, I felt like we really connected spiritually," Max adds. "Like in the beginning of 'Ratamahatta' when the both of us are singing these Indian chants, there was no rehearsal for that. It was just me and him in the vocal booth. I began calling up to our ancestors from inside the booth, and I'm glad the producer was smart enough to record it."

"For 'Canyon Jam,' our intent was to utilize the full possibilities of the compact disc," reveals Kisser in reference to the atmospheric, instrumental hidden track on Roots. "And in the case of Roots, we were really exploring that extra time without concerns, and to really be free like the Xavantes tribe who gave us that concept about dealing with time. 'Canyon Jam' was with Carlinhos Brown and done with no plan. It was just us and Ross Robinson, who inputted all of the microphones all throughout the canyon, like miles and miles of cable, and put them in different positions. It was really open. Carlinhos was really kind and guided us to really different vibes and grooves. It was very of the moment."

One other key aspect of Roots that really calls up the spirits of their musical heritage is "Jasco," an acoustic instrumental track by Kisser that not only serves as an homage to heady nugs but the guitar work of the legendary ECM composer Egberto Gismonti. 

"Egberto Gismonti is such a fantastic performer and composer," Kisser tells GRAMMY.com. "He plays that 10-string acoustic guitar, and when he plays the low strings it gives off this weird, fantastic vibe. He uses these harmonies that really represent the vibe of the jungle and the interior of the country. I had Egberto in mind when I did 'Jasco'. I tuned the lowest string to D in order to give the impression of the Amazon rainforest—at least in my head (laughs)." 

Back when Sepultura created Roots in the mid-90s, heavy metal had only begun to spread its wings in the global village of modern music. This occurred thanks to the inventive work of peers like Mike Patton (who alongside members of Korn and House of Pain appear on the album track "Lookaway"), China's Tang Dynasty and Israel's Orphaned Children. 

Yet it took a group like Sepultura, whose acclaim among their high profile peers and open-minded fans of metal helped them break through the overwhelming whiteness of modern metal. As such, they paved a new road for groups like Botswana's Overthrust, Indonesia's Siksakubur and India's Demonic Resurrection to not only survive but thrive in a genre oftentimes too blinded by its collective European heritage. 

"I think that was the coolest thing about Roots," Iggor admits. "Especially in the metal world, where we know there is still a lot of closed-minded mentality and people with macho bulls**t. And for us to do an album like Roots, I think it was a real eye-opener for those types of guys to see that you can still make some pretty heavy stuff and leave room to expand and try new things."

"I remember the older bands would take on a different melody or something in a song but it wouldn't be 100 percent immersive," Pinto Jr. surmises. "For us, being Brazilian, this kind of music was all around us regardless, whether we liked it or not. It's been part of our lives for all this time."

"To me, Roots is such a cool record in that regard," adds Max. "Because apart from all of the Indian stuff, some of these songs are the heaviest we ever did together like 'Cutthroat' and 'Ambush' which is about Chico Mendes who, to me, is a Brazilian hero from the rainforest. I knew this was going to be a divisive album. But that's what happens when you roll the dice. I think the record has really evolved over time, though. We've been to about 80 countries, and in a weird way, Roots left its mark on all of those places. It's so cool to hear how this record is still influencing people to this day."

In all this looking back at Roots on its 25th anniversary, though the album was crafted during a period of great interpersonal strife amongst the members of this lineup, each of them recalls its creation with a fondness that supersedes any bitterness or regret towards the era. The pride each of these men has about the making of Rootsrises above any animosity they may have had.

"I have to mention Ross Robinson," interjects Kisser. "Without Ross, none of this would be possible. Andy Wallace as well. And Roadrunner. Everyone was really crucial in making what Roots is—this balance of everyone in the right place putting in the right input, and in equal measure. That's why it's still so powerful today. But I think amidst all of the chaos backstage with all of us really fighting a lot, I don't think Roots would have been possible as well. 

"It was a turmoil that really helped our art in the end," he continues. "It kept that fire in us, and really helped us survive each other. We disagreed on a lot of topics. But in the times when we would be playing together and jamming, nobody invaded that realm. It was really sacred and we kept it that way."

"It makes me wonder that if Roots were to be released today, if it could win a GRAMMY," adds Max, who continues to expand upon the album's global directions with his group Soulfly. "I'm very proud of how it left such a big mark on the world of metal."

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Greta Van Fleet press photo

Greta Van Fleet

 

Photo: Alysse Gafkjen

 
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Battle Tested: Greta Van Fleet's Jake And Sam Kiszka Talk Ambitious New Album, 'The Battle At Garden's Gate'

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GRAMMY-winning rockers Greta Van Fleet tell GRAMMY.com about how their time on the road and exposure to different ways of thinking led to their sonically and lyrically dynamic new album, 'The Battle At Garden's Gate'
Joshua M. Miller
GRAMMYs
Apr 23, 2021 - 5:10 am

Greta Van Fleet is primed and ready for a battle. On "Age of Machine," off the band's latest album, The Battle at Garden's Gate, singer Josh Kiszka questions the domination social media, one societal machine, has on his generation, Gen Z: "Perfect child/Plugged in since the womb/Prophet of the dune/In this electric tomb," he sings.

"You have people, young men and young women, who are plugged into social media and into alternative forms of growing up and how you inter-personalize some of these things," his brother, Jake, tells GRAMMY.com during a recent interview.

"You make so many constructs, the social media telling a young person, 'You're not skinny enough, you're not pretty enough, you're not smart enough, you're not perfect.' And I think this song says, 'Yeah, you are.' It says that these things are machine-created constructs. That's not the reality; it's not truthful."

In the past few years, life on the road and a move to Nashville have made the band more aware of the wide world outside of their native Michigan. Being exposed to different ways of thinking and meeting new people gave them empathy for others less fortunate who struggle with inequality, hunger and poverty. It also made the band realize how alike we all are.

These themes, and more, are lyrically at the heart of The Battle at Garden's Gate.

"The stories are what translate most to the human soul," bass/keyboard player and fellow brother Sam says.

Adds Jake, "It is masked in hope and it's mastered with this kind of feeling that we, as a human species, can overcome these very great challenges."

Greta Van Fleet, which also features their friend Danny Wagner on drums, have come a long way since first performing in their small hometown of Frankenmuth, Michigan, nearly a decade ago. Following an unexpected surge in popularity thanks to their earlier, vintage-rock-infused releases, including their 2017 GRAMMY-winning double EP, From the Fires, as well as their 2018 debut album, Anthem of the Peaceful Army, they've since routinely sold out venues around the globe, performed on late-night shows such as "Saturday Night Live" and "The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon," and played international music festivals, including Coachella.

Building on that momentum, Battle at Garden's Gate, produced by Greg Kurstin (Paul McCartney, Foo Fighters and Adele), now sees Greta Van Fleet exploring a more cinematic and progressive sound while marking a vision fully realized for the band.

"I think this is the record that we always wanted to make even years and years ago, when we were still playing in the garage," Jake says.

GRAMMY.com caught up with Greta Van Fleet's Jake and Sam Kiszka recently to discuss their new album, The Battle at Garden's Gate, the importance of finding hope in songs, the effect of technology and social media on their generation, and embracing the Led Zeppelin comparisons.

This interview has been edited for clarity and brevity.

Everything's screeched to a halt due to the COVID-19 pandemic. How have you kept busy over the past year?

Jake Kiszka: Well, we haven't. We've been bored off our asses … It's been kind of a double-edged sword because touring is such at the core of what we do; it's sort of the sole purpose of a group like [ours]. But I suppose on the other side of the blade, it's been interesting because we have been able to take a form of creativity and redirect it in another direction … We've been able to really shape and craft a lot of the visual aesthetics for what we're doing.

I think we also cursed ourselves because when we made the record, we went into it with this idea that we can do whatever we want. And whenever there was a question about how we are going to replicate that live, we said, "Don't worry about it. We'll figure that out later." So, I think it's perhaps the record that we made that shut down the world.

[The time off] lent us the ability for two more songs on the album. We pretty much had the record entirely recorded last summer and everything shut down. So, we started writing again—we started writing a new album, actually—and we came up with these two songs, "The Barbarians" and "Caravel" that … sounded so much like The Battle at Garden's Gate.

Many of the songs have a hopeful aspect to them. Why was it important to have that element?

Jake: It's tough to feel hopeful, especially in this day and age. I think that's something that's super important about the record. We didn't necessarily record it with the intention to be releasing it into a world like this, but it was very appropriate … [It's important] being able to deal with rapid industry growth and greed and being able to deal with gender norms and a lot of racial issues and a lot of things that our generation is going to have to solve in the very, very [near] future. It is masked in hope and it's mastered with this kind of feeling that we, as a human species, can overcome these very great challenges.

Sam Kiszka: Most people have chalked the album to be a very dark album, whereas actually, it's kind of the opposite. It's sort of a representation of the resilience of the human soul.

Why did The Battle at Garden's Gate feel like a fitting title for this collection?

Sam: I think that the whole idea of what humanity is, is fundamentally broken and we are just so fundamentally cursed as being humans in this world. There's always greed and there's always hate, and there's always some kind of misunderstanding that causes some kind of ridiculous wars and everything that can destroy humanity. That's what's outside of the gate, and in the theoretical world inside the gate is perfect mankind, right?

It's kind of like this Garden of Eden idea: It's all perfection within the confines of those four walls. [There are] so many metaphors that you can pull out of that. And that was our intention to build this world, to be able to tell these stories because the stories are what translates most to the human soul. You may not know somebody until you know their story, and that is a fundamentally understood thing.

I think the gate and everything outside the gate and everything within this world that we've started building exists only as a tool that we can use to show people what is happening in our world currently.

Jake: As this thing develops, it starts to reveal itself to a certain degree that we now understand more of what the story is we're trying to tell lyrically or instrumentally; we had a greater understanding of the personality of the album and it's a story. It pulls from the mythology. It involves very contemporary issues and biblical themes. The Battle at Garden's Gate just seemed like a perfect title.

While touring the past few years, the band got to meet a lot of different people and were exposed to different cultures. How were those experiences impactful?

Jake: They really … [informed us] of a lot of the alternative ways of thought and certainly many different philosophies throughout the world … It gave us a topic to discuss, it gave us something important to say … There's ... hope that you've been reformed of in these different cultures.

There's also this aspect of sadness that you see in the world. There's poverty and there's hunger, and there are so many different things … in terms of what represents [itself] on the album.

What's one specific moment on the road that really impacted you?

Sam: Hearing Dave Grohl talk about what music is and his interpretation of that, and Taylor Hawkins as well … Seeing those guys be so excited to play and so excited to be there and be so talkative and soulful. It was really invigorating to be on the road and have that kind of energy shooting around. So we have a profound respect for those guys, how they do what they do.

"Age of Machine" questions the role of technology in society. What was the inspiration for that one?

Sam: One of the main ones was futuristic work in literature and film. The whole idea that society gets to a place in time where the technology takes over men and it poses this very fundamental issue: Are men more intelligent than the machine? Or is it the other way around?

You can think of machine as the technological kind of fetters; let's call it your phone, social media, whatever that is, whatever is poisoning our society's minds. And then you have machine, which is this very archaic system that functions only because of the greed and the wealth of exploiting the Earth.

Jake: In the song, there's a lyric: "Plugged into the womb." You have people, young men and young women, who are plugged into social media and into alternative forms of growing up and how you inter-personalize some of these things. You make so many constructs, the social media telling a young person, "You're not skinny enough, you're not pretty enough, you're not smart enough, you're not perfect." And I think this song says, "Yeah, you are." It says that these things are machine-created constructs, that's not the reality. It's not truthful.

Greg Kurstin was instrumental in giving the band confidence to try new things. How did he help the band go in a different direction?

Jake: What Greg brought was age and wisdom to this process … He was there to guide us if we needed assistance. Another thing that he really taught us was problem-solving, musically. You come into a bridge and you're like, "We have three options." And Gregg can say, "I like them all, but this one in particular stands out to me because." And I think that was a big leg up for us and a big learning experience.

Sam: Yeah, it was a good book ending to quite a story.

Jake: I think this is the record that we always wanted to make even years and years ago, when we were still playing in the garage. We just didn't have the means to do it. Also, I don't really think we had the resume to make a record like this, something that is so aggressively large.

It feels [like] we had the opportunity to choose and do everything our own way. We made this record and, in our eyes, it's perfect. It's exactly molded to the verifications and the specifications, tailor-fit, kind of exactly what we want. Which I can't say for any of our other previous work; there's always been things that we kind of abandoned. As Da Vinci said, [you never really finished art, you just abandon it. But we sure as f**k finished it on The Garden's Gate. It only took a year and a half.

When the band released Anthem of the Peaceful Army in 2018, many compared you to classic rock bands like Led Zeppelin, some positively, some negatively. Did the not-so-flattering side of that give everyone thicker skin or a motivation to keep moving forward?

Sam: Yeah, there have been so many comparisons over so many years to so many bands, so many artists. I guess we've always been humbled with reference, honored by affiliation, always. It's an interesting thing because it is a very loud minority that doesn't seem to speak for the quiet majority.

This seems to be this abhorrence within the factions of society that are drawn to ignorant criticism, but that's just something that we'll never be a part of contributing to. And I suppose we're really sort of enlightened to the idea of evolution and the fact that you take one thing to ascend to another thing, to contribute to the future. Sometimes, you have to look back to go forward. We stand on the shoulders of the giants that came before. It's inspiring, really.

How has the move to Nashville changed your perception of being a band?

Sam: It was very interesting, especially in terms of where we came from, which was a very small town in Michigan. It's interesting to call somewhere new "home," and I think we were all very reluctant. I think we're all very pleased to be able to call Nashville home now, especially in terms of its history, what it offers musically. There are so many musical people around and you can certainly feel [it].

I suppose we're in the new side of Nashville, but you can certainly feel this energy boiling and bubbling and in this sort of bloodline, this lifeline of energy. There's certainly an interesting scene going on now in this time. There's so much influence, so much inspiration and so many great artists here. I think it certainly offers us an alternative perspective to growing up in a small town … It's very strange, different, but also a very beautiful and unique thing.

How do you hope the band can be socially conscious beyond music?

Jake: You imbue things that you're saying, that you're creating. You become those things. I think that's ultimately natural, habitual for us to emanate those things, project them.

We're looking at a very new generation, we're looking for new problems to solve. These are the things that we're concerning ourselves with, in a certain sense, but also advocating for, sexuality, equality, etc. This year has certainly been a whirlwind for many different understandings, how we as a society can understand new challenges. I think we do participate ourselves in some of those things outside of the music.

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Zoé

Photo: Dana Trippe

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Zoé Continue To Build On Their Indie Synth Rock Legacy With 'Sonidos De Kármatica Resonancia'

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Zoé's Ángel Mosqueda talks about all the magic that went into creating 'Sonidos de Kármatica Resonancia,' the band's progression over the years and having Latin American legends record their versions of Zoé's songs
Alexis Hodoyán-Gastélum
GRAMMYs
Apr 20, 2021 - 5:16 am

Though it may not seem like it—given that sounds like reggaeton pop are currently dominating the so-called Latin music field in the streaming age—Mexicans can be huge rock snobs. So the fact that Zoé, with their signature indie rock and synthpop sonic identity, are one of today’s most emblematic Mexican rock en Español bands in and out of Latin America—a place where rock still has an invested audience—more than solidifies their position in the rock history books.

The 24-year-old band continues to build on their legacy with Sonidos de Kármatica Resonancia, their latest album since 2018’s Aztlán, released on April 16. Though their seventh album as a band, creating Sonidos de Kármatica Resonancia gave vocalist León Larregui, bassist Ángel Mosqueda, guitarist Sergio Acosta, keyboardist Jesús Báez, and drummer Rodrigo Guardiola a few firsts. "It was the first time we used different techniques to record an album, and I think there was a lot of enthusiasm on the band’s part of doing something like that," Mosqueda shared through WhatsApp call as he lounged in his Mexico City bed. "To play and record together [in the same booth] was something the band wanted to do for a long time, and we finally got to do it."

Last year brought them another unexpected first, one that changed the way they promote their music: releasing half of the album’s tracklist as singles. The band began working on Sonidos de Kármatica Resonancia in 2019 and had it locked and loaded for a 2020 release. The pandemic, of course, ended up throwing a wrench into those plans. Instead, Zoé released five singles throughout the year: "SKR," "Fiebre," "Karmadame," and "El Duelo." Their track "Velur" followed up earlier this year and now, with the album release, "Popular" is their latest single.   

Most notably, however, is the fact that the band worked with Craig Silvey, known for his work with Arcade Fire and Florence & the Machine, to produce the full album. Zoé teamed up with Silvey for some of the songs on the 2019 GRAMMY-winning album Aztlán and wanted to pursue a new direction with Sonidos de Kármatica Resonancia. Up until this album, the band had worked with Phil Vinall for their entire careers. "We’re eternally grateful [to Phil]," Mosqueda explained. "He taught us a lot. Our albums [with him] turned out incredibly. It was an amazing phase." Thanks to the nostalgic 70’s rock n’ roll flair Silvey brought into the mix, Zoé fully dove into a trippier, lucid dream-like experience with SKR. 

Zoé’s sound remains a galactic voyage, complemented with poetically introspective lyrics that simultaneously look out into the world. And though the band, who just announced their lengthy album- supporting U.S. tour, went for a heavily psychedelic sound and explored new production techniques on their new album, there’s a comforting familiarity in these songs that let you know: Yup, this is a Zoé album. 

Mosqueda spoke to GRAMMY.com last week about all the magic that went into creating Sonidos de Kármatica Resonancia, the band’s progression over the years and having Latin American legends record their versions of Zoé’s songs.

This interview was conducted in Spanish and translated to English; it has been edited and condensed for clarity.

I was recently rewatching the music video for "Azul" off of your previous album Aztlán and the plot deals with the outbreak of a virus epidemic. Two years later, do you think that’s a bit trippy given the current state of the world?

Yeah, those are things that happen. León really likes science fiction, and in this case, the story coincided in a certain way with this issue, with what happened later. And it’s something that can keep on happening. There’s always new viruses, there’s always new beings that affect us. So yes, it’s particularly interesting. 

This new album, Sonidos de Kármatica Resonancia, is the follow up to 2018’s GRAMMY-winning Aztlán. How do you feel about releasing this new record coming back from this big win?

We’re very happy. We think Aztlán was a great album that had many achievements. Among them, winning a GRAMMY, which we obviously feel very flattered, happy, and satisfied about. With this new album, we’re also very happy with the entire production process [of] recording the album. We think this will be a great release, viene con todo (we put everything into it). We’ve had a lot of support, and we’re very confident about SKR too.  

Can you talk about the story behind the album’s name?

The title makes a reference to our own music, what we’ve been doing during our now long career of a bit over 20 years. We wanted this album to have songs that are very Zoé. We believed this was a good moment to look back at our own careers and our career as a band and look at what we’ve been doing, look at the number of songs that have passed first before us and then have become part of the people’s liking. [The album] deals with that. An introspection, of looking into our own influences, both individually and as a group, and also how the influence that the group is already exerting over us when we’re composing. So on these songs [on the album] like "SKR," we can see ourselves not only in the present but also throughout our entire careers. And that what Sonidos de Kármatica Resonancia means — the music that resonates with you, that’s already part of you. 

"Popular" is the newest single. How did this song come to be?

This song is the most pop-sounding on the album, and to me personally, I love it. This song comes from two different songs. We fused one song that Chuco and I [had worked on] a demo.  León also had another demo and what we did was combine part of his song and part of ours and the result is "Popular." It’s a song we’ve always had our eye on because we knew it had those pop characteristics that are very Zoé. I think it’s a nice song. 

The album opens up with "Popular," which as you mentioned is a more upbeat track, and then it takes you on a trip that ends a little bit darker than how it started. 

On one hand we have songs that have worked really well, on the popular side, precisely, or on a mainstream level. And we also have other songs that are a bit crazier, more experimental, and even darker. The [second half] of the album is like that. I think that when fans listen to [the album cuts], they’ll have both worlds of Zoé synthesized in 10 songs. Well, that’s the intention. It would be practically impossible to do so, but that’s the intention. 

In reference to the singles that are already out, I read that you said "Velur" was the song that reflects how the band makes music. Can you expand on that?

"Velur" has a structure that’s very, very Zoé. I feel like it’s in the family of songs like "No Me Destruyas" and "Vía Láctea," without them necessarily being alike. I’d categorize that song in that same universe because, [on "Velur"] the composition is very simple, with a very simple harmony, a lush melody; [it’s] very easy to understand, and very catchy. The chorus comes in where our other choruses come in on these types of songs. [And then] there are songs on the album that are something else completely. Like you said, [on] the last three songs, the structure is very different, the chorus comes in who knows where, [but "Velur"] got a very compact treatment. It has a guitar riff, I believe, between verse 1 and 2 that’s typical Zoé. It was something that was done consciously. I wouldn’t say this is the usual way that Zoé composes music, but one of the ways Zoé composes music. Because fortunately, we have a certain brand, and our songs have a certain familiarity when it comes to our composition and structures. This album establishes that there are songs with a structure like "Velur," but there are also others like "Ese Cuadro No Me Pinta," which breaks with everything that I just mentioned, and breaks with structure, and has a very long introduction, a chorus that comes in in a very weird place. So there’s no way of pigeonholing the way that Zoé composes music.    

Now that you mention "Ese Cuadro No Me Pinta," like you said, it breaks with songs and sounds that we tend to associate with Zoé, which the first part of the album covers. Was that done intentionally? The album flows from sounds more aligned with pop and then it progressively gets darker, ending in "Bestiario," which is kind of a wtf moment. 

What happened, right? [laughs] More than it being intentional, when we compose music and when we’re arranging the songs [and] playing them in the studio, there’s a lot of intuition. The element of intuition plays a role in the creative process. On a song like "Ese Cuadro No Me Pinta," we let ourselves flow with the music, we knew it wasn’t going to be a single. We knew it was an album track in which we could extend certain things that we couldn’t do on other songs that are for radio. So, our intuition alone would tell us "give it more turns to the intro, don’t let the voice come in." Even our producer Craig Silvey would tell us, “vibe out even more.” This is a song to trip out on. And when you’re doing this, then there’s a bit of intentionality, and that’s where we start dictating which road the song is taking, and it can be a lot more free. We wouldn’t have done this exercise on "Velur." So, yes, there is a bit of intuition and a bit of intentionality. Both are present in the music. 

Speaking of Craig Silvey, how did the band come to the decision of having him produce the entire album?

With Craig, we also worked on four songs from the last album. We had an unrest about working with someone else on some songs. And things kind of worked out in a way that we had Craig on the last album. We really liked his work. We became friends, we understood each other musically really well, and for this album, the group still had that unrest about working on a full, unified album with him. We’re very, very happy that this happened. For this album, we wanted to work with the type of techniques that Craig could offer, the band thought it was the moment to try it out. And I think the result was very rewarding.

Sonidos de Karmática Resonancia is the band’s seventh album and you’ve been together for 24 years. How would you say the way you create music has changed or evolved throughout the years?

It’s changed in the sense that we have more experience. You evolve with each album, and our evolution consists of being more mature when it comes to composing, making arrangements, recording techniques. On the other hand, on each album we look to incorporate new things, new synthesizers that give you new sounds, new basses, new guitars. On this album, one of the main "development differences" was recording many songs together, playing at the same time together while we recorded. And that gave the album a special touch. It’s nothing new in music, but we hadn’t experimented with that before, and it was very fun. Some songs sound as if we were playing a show together. 

Well, now that we don’t have live shows, that vibe is more than welcomed. 

I think people will like it. The most important thing is the songs, really. The songs speak for themselves. And fortunately, the songs have come at a really good moment and we’re very happy about it. With the songs and the entire production process. 

As a bit of a side note, can we talk about Reversiones? What is it like having Latin American staples, like Alejandro Fernandez, Juanes, and Mon Laferte, record their own renditions of Zoé’s songs for a compilation album?

Well, really cool. There has been a great selection of artists who have reinterpreted our songs, people of great caliber. And other than caliber, people with a long trajectory and an enormous level of popularity. It’s an honor for us that people of that stature in this industry accepted and worked on our songs, and created great versions. It’s something really cool, to have other artists play your music.

Just to close off, is there anything you’d like to add?

I think SKR is a dignified release, a dignified representative of yet another Zoé album. It’s yet another album that has all of our affection. And we hope that if things get better globally in terms of health and economy, we can play shows because that’s primarily what we do. After making records, you gotta play them.  

The Offspring Talk The Near End Of COVID-19, Why Birds Are "Badass" & New Album, Let The Bad Times Roll

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Yoshiki

Yoshiki

Photo: Yoshiki Foundation America

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Yoshiki On Teaming With MusiCares To Address Mental Health & His New Disney+ Special

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"Suicide is not only one person's problem," X Japan drummer Yoshiki tells GRAMMY.com. "The people around the person have to live with that pain, and I'm one of them"
Bryan Reesman
MusiCares
Mar 29, 2021 - 7:30 am

Drummer, pianist and X Japan bandleader Yoshiki has lived a life that countless musicians dream of. His band has sold more than 30 million albums globally, toured across Asia and Europe, headlined Madison Square Garden, and sold out the massive Tokyo Dome a record 18 times. 

Still, he's aware of the plight of others far less fortunate than himself. Eleven years ago, Yoshiki founded the Yoshiki Foundation America for the purpose of aiding in various causes, and since the X Japan documentary We Are X came out in 2016, he has been open about his personal struggles with depression and suicidal thoughts after his father committed suicide when he was 10 years old. 

His latest endeavor with MusiCares is an annual $100,000 grant from his foundation to aid those in the music industry who are coping with or have been affected by depression and suicide. Funds will be used to help those coping with depression or suicidal thoughts as well as survivors of suicide loss.

Yoshiki spoke to GRAMMY.com about the grant and his recent Disney+ special, "Disney My Music Story." He also discussed his YouTube Originals concert and upcoming documentary "Under The Sky" featuring guest performances by St. Vincent, The Chainsmokers, Sarah Brightman, Scorpions and other artists.

For many years, you've been involved in philanthropic endeavors. When did you realize you could use your rock star status for good deeds, and what was the cause that compelled you to action?

There was the Kobe earthquake 25 years ago. It was a pretty big earthquake. Over 10 schools lost their buildings, so we [X Japan] donated pianos for their music classes. I think that was the first time we did something. Since then, if an earthquake or something happens, I donate here and there. Then, in 2010, I created my own foundation to keep supporting people [in various ways]. 

You've given money, but you've also given something of yourself. Ten years ago, you donated the crystal piano that you played at Tokyo Dome shows with X Japan for victims of tsunami and earthquake devastation. How hard was it to let go of something so personal?

Around that time, I tried to figure out: what's the best way to support people? With people like us, it's not just that you're donating something to someone. What we do can also spread, right? Artist A did this, Artist B did that. 

So because we are in the position that the media can talk about this, and also the way we do it, people can understand who needs some help. By donating such a memorable piano, people around the world can notice, "Those people need support." I thought that was a very effective way to support even more than what I could do.

Your current MusiCares partnership is a grant to raise awareness for mental health issues and suicide prevention. What inspired you to create this grant?

Since my father committed suicide, I became very suicidal. I was looking for the moment to die, but I couldn't kill myself. I was already playing piano when my father was playing piano. I was composing already. I just used this darkness and pain and converted it into art, so that's how I've been surviving. 

Then, my band member [Hide] also passed away. And another member, Taiji, committed suicide, and it really hit me again. Again, I became suicidal. I've always been suicidal. When I help people, somehow I'm also being helped at the same time. That's supporting me too. I have my own problems.

How does the grant work?

As of now, I donate a certain amount of money every year so that music industry people can have a counselor or a psychiatrist to support them – somebody who has suicidal thoughts or depression, or somebody who lost their family member or close one to this kind of problem. 

Because committing suicide is not only one person's problem. The people around the person have to live with that pain, and I'm one of them. The cause can support those people as well.

You've said it before: For the people who are left behind, what do they do?

Exactly. It's very different than if somebody… Death is death, after all. [People can] die from some kind of an accident or sickness. But committing suicide is their own choice. So if your friend or family member [did it]...why couldn't I stop that? 

In my father's case: Was I a bad son? I still think about it [after] all these years.

How hard has it been to discuss these issues in your own life? And then how else do you want to get the word out about dealing with them? Do you want to do public speaking?

Well, before the film We Are X, I did not talk about that much. It's not something cool to talk about, right? But after the film was out, a lot of people came to me and because of that, because of my story, I decided to live. I decided not to take my life. 

Like, wow, my story or the music or combination is supporting people. It's still painful to talk about it, but the story can support people and help people's lives... I don't know, I'm not good at making speeches in front of a lot of people. I'm good at rocking. [laughs] I would love to support more people's lives.

You said you've channeled some of your pain into your music. Do you channel that as much into your classical music as you do your rock music?

I think a combination of both. So yes, sometimes I keep playing the piano to contain my sadness, but also playing drums or even breaking drums to just contain my anger. Because of that environment, I was kind of saved, I guess. If you go out and start smashing things on stage, people like it, but you cannot do it in real life.

Read: Yoshiki Donates $100k To MusiCares COVID-19 Relief Fund "To Help My Colleagues Who Might Be Struggling"

You've teamed up with MusiCares a few times before. Why is this alliance so important to you, and why do you feel such a connection with this organization?

They support the music industry to which I belong. Sometimes, people may have a hard time understanding our situation. We are not special, we are the same as you, but the way we act and perform on stage, people may think we are something different. 

At the same time, our image is supposed to be bigger than life. We don't have to live that way, but we are also as vulnerable as anyone. In this gap, I sometimes get lost. It's so hard to just show a weaker side sometimes. All those MusiCares activities, [from] education to disaster relief to other things, I think they are doing amazing things.

Many musicians quietly deal with mental health issues. It's the same thing in Hollywood. There are a lot of actors who are dealing with them but don't tell others. People don't often like to show "weakness." How do you think MusiCares will be effective in working with this grant program to reach out to the music community about these issues?

Musicians [and] artists are supposed to help people through music or through art or film, but we also have problems. MusiCares supports the artists, the artists can support people, so it's a very important role MusiCares has especially right now. Our hope is towards the end of the tunnel, but we still haven't left the tunnel yet.

Yoshiki

Yoshiki presenting a check to MusiCares. Photo courtesy of Yoshiki Foundation America.

I've been hearing that the pandemic has been very hard for people struggling with depression and addiction. You and I are used to being hermits when we work. You can sit in the studio, I can write in my office. But other people are struggling with not having that human contact. Zoom calls are great, but it's nice to see people in person. Has anyone mentioned that to you at all?

I'm kind of used to the isolation, being alone [in] the composition process. I haven't gone out to eat in one year. It's very strange. I thought I could be just by myself, like one year without seeing anyone, but it's feeling strange. If I start feeling like that, I can imagine other people. I love loneliness. I used to love loneliness. But this is strange. I talked to some of my musician friends who were acting fine on Zoom calls, but I could see through it.

You've talked about your suicidal thoughts and mental health issues. Do you think that more musicians will be inspired to open up about those things seeing that there are major figures such as yourself being very public about this? And have you noticed that?

Yeah. Sometimes we also see musicians kill themselves. I think that being on stage and being off stage, we get lost in between somehow. When I met David Bowie a long time ago, I asked him, "Where do you draw the line [between] your real life and life on stage?" He couldn't answer it. He said, "That's a good question."

The Yoshiki Foundation America is based in the States, but you have an international reach. You've donated to earthquake and tsunami relief, COVID relief, childhood cancer research and Meals On Wheels. Are there any other charitable causes that are close to your heart that you want to get involved with?

Oh, yes, we are also donating to environmental issues, sustainability issues. We are learning more and more how important they are.

I've heard that when Hide was alive, he had been helping out an X Japan fan who was terminally ill, and then you took over following his unexpected death. Could you tell us about that story?

I think the Make-A-Wish Foundation in Japan approached Hide. There was this huge Hide fan named Mayuko who had bone marrow disease. [After] Hide passed away, I didn't know what to do. I was organizing some disaster relief, but I took over the position. I started supporting her to the end of her life. Hide inspired me. She was very strong to the last minute. She was very inspirational.

I believe you're the first Japanese music artist to have a Disney+ special in America which includes two of your Disney covers, "Let It Go" and "Can You Feel the Love Tonight." I'm curious how that came about?

I'm very grateful that Disney+ approached me to do my life story and incorporate the Disney story. That documentary is almost 90% Japanese. I thought it was created for Disney+ Japan but Disney+ picked it up, and I was kind of surprised by that. I think my fans requested it. I don't know how that happened actually because it's almost like a foreign film [with subtitles].

I feel like Japan and other Asian countries have done well in response to the coronavirus. What do you think we can learn over here about the Eastern response to the pandemic?

This COVID-19 situation is all about, not "I'm first," [but] "I care about you first.". So wearing the mask or staying home is not for you [but] for your friends. That kind of thought. Some diseases [like smallpox] completely disappeared because our ancestors [were] vaccinated. That's why we don't have to deal with that. 

So, we are doing this for the next generation, or your friends or your family or people around the world. That's most important. Then secondary, also your life. That's how I think. I'm not saying you should it do this way, but those are my thoughts.

How MusiCares' Music On A Mission Honored The Resilience Of The Music Community

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Pat Monahan

Pat Monahan in 2002

Photo: Martin Philbey/Redferns/Getty Images

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Train's Pat Monahan Revisits Every Song On 'Drops Of Jupiter' 20 Years Later: "I'm A Lot Happier Than I Was Back Then"

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Pat Monahan wrote Train's most successful album, 2001's 'Drops of Jupiter,' in a whirlwind of sudden fame and destabilizing grief. Now, he looks back on it with two decades' worth of hindsight
Morgan Enos
GRAMMYs
Mar 26, 2021 - 6:34 am

What do the Rolling Stones' session pianist Chuck Leavell and Leonard Cohen's string orchestrator Paul Buckmaster have in common? They both appeared on Train's "Drops of Jupiter." 

While the song may conjure the Y2K adult-contemporary boom more than those vintage artists, the two studio veterans' presence speaks volumes. No matter which way your tastes flicker, "Drops of Jupiter" is a classy tune. Not that Train singer, Pat Monahan, was thinking about that at the time. A married father in his late twenties touring the world on their early hit "Meet Virginia," Monahan felt destabilized by sudden fame, struggling to square his his tour life with his home life.

Sure, he might have commanded a stage in front of adoring fans, but that didn't mean much while crying on a payphone near the venue afterward. Why? At the time, his mother was terminally ill—and her eventual passing is what inspired "Drops of Jupiter," released on their album of the same name 20 years ago on March 27, 2001. In the hit song, Monahan wonders where his mother might be: "But tell me, did you sail across the sun?/ Did you make it to the Milky Way/ To see the lights all faded/ And that heaven is overrated? " he asks.

"I wrote that song in 15 minutes," Monahan tells GRAMMY.com over Zoom. "I fell asleep and woke up and it was like my mom tapped on the shoulder, and she was like, 'Let's go. I've got it for you. Let's go write this.' And it was a story about her telling me what the afterlife was."

While Monahan admits the title track—which was nominated for Record Of The Year and Best Rock Performance By A Duo Or Group With Vocal at the 2002 GRAMMY Awards show— "consumed" the album, other tunes like "I Wish You Would," "Hopeless" and "Something More" provide further breadcrumbs as to his state of mind.

As for the rest of the album? Monahan, now the only sole founding member in the band, mostly stands by it, even if he admits he was miserable at the time. GRAMMY.com spoke with Monahan about memories behind every song on Drops of Jupiter, how Leavell and Buckmaster got involved, and why he's happy never to return to this well of sorrow.

Does it feel like Drops of Jupiter came out two decades ago?

I never really think about that, but yeah. I suppose it does. A lot has happened in 20 years. I'm a lot happier than I was back then. I think that whole album is based on a lot of sadness and questions and really not having faith in the future, but now, it's a different life that I live. So, it's pretty cool to look back at that.

What was going on in your emotional life at the time?

Well, I was in a bad relationship, and I was traveling so much and I had children. It was after the first album that had "Meet Virginia" on it. It was still a time [when] there was no real money. We sold a million albums but it didn't mean that I was living in any type of luxury at all. The only thing I was able to do at that point was to pay off my credit card debt. 

We were traveling the U.S. and Canada. We may have even gone to Australia with it, but we never really went to Europe or anything. There wasn't a big push in Europe for "Meet Virginia," so writing the second record was, I would say, more pressure than I've ever felt in my life. 

We knew [we needed to write] some type of song that people would care about or the chances of making another record were going to be slim.

Tell me about "She's On Fire."

"She's On Fire" was a fantasy. There were moments on that first tour that I met a lot of people, and I was seeing so many beautiful faces and meeting boys and girls and everything you could think of. But I was married, so there was no anything I could do about any kind of attraction I might have had. So, I had to write songs instead. "She's On Fire," I think, was a fantasy of, like, "Man. This is the magic of what a relationship should feel like."

We thought that was an obvious first single. We just thought that was the coolest song ever. When we listen now, it's obvious that it's not. But nobody else thought it was a first single, and we were really surprised. So everything obvious in my career is never the single. I should never judge what a single sounds like because it's the weird ones that make it to the forefront of radio and peoples' brains.

What about it struck you guys as the obvious first single?

It had tempo. We thought [sings hook] "She's on fiiiiiire!" would appeal to whether you liked pop radio or country radio or whatever. That sat there in a great American way. Americana, I should say.

I'm looking at the chart position. It did respectably.

It did OK. Not like we imagined. And I think it came from the fact that "Drops of Jupiter" was so big that it still had some momentum, even though the second single was supposed to be a song called "Something More." But it got dumped because of 9/11. We shot a music video for it [where] I was climbing up a sky-rise building and 9/11 happened and everything changed.

So, we went to "She's On Fire," but it was years—It seemed like two years after "Drops of Jupiter." Sometimes, a song can be so big that it can consume the entire album, and that's kind of what happened.

Tell me about "I Wish You Would."

That was more about a fantasy of what I had always hoped to go home to. Being on the road for months and months and months and coming home, my fantasy was to come home to someone who was as excited to see me come home as I was excited to be home. That kind of thing. That's what that song's about.

That entire album is either me apologizing for shit or hoping for things, and it continued into the next album, with "Calling All Angels." That was the end of that period for me.

From what you've described regarding the first few tunes, it seems like there was a tension between home life and tour life.

Of course! I mean, I was 28, 29. My son was born when I was 23, and I was sober. I had been sober for a long time because I knew what it was going to take for a guy from Erie, Pennsylvania, to try to be successful to be in a potentially dangerous industry. Everyone around me was partying and having multiple fun relationships and I was just working.

Now, we get to the big one. Obviously, a product of grief. A really personal one and also the biggest hit.

Yep. You know, somebody asked me the other day about that, because I had lost my mother that year and we were writing and it was hard to be inspired by anything when a boy loses his mom. It was very tragic. 

But somebody asked me, "How do you feel that potentially the biggest song of your career means so much to you?" I was like, "Wow, I've never really thought about that." It wasn't a fluke. It wasn't like, "Oh yeah, we just came up with [mimics guitar riff] 'Doo-dow-now-now!' or whatever." It's a really heartfelt moment for me, so I guess I should be more appreciative. I've never really thought about that.

I wrote that song in 15 minutes, man. I fell asleep and woke up and it was like my mom tapped on the shoulder, and she was like, "Let's go. I've got it for you. Let's go write this." And it was a story about her telling me what the afterlife was. "I can swim through the planets if I want to. I can do whatever I want."

One thing about "Drops of Jupiter" that a lot of people don't talk about is that it had two veterans on it—Paul Buckmaster and Chuck Leavell.

Chuck Leavell, man. He made that song as magical as it could have been because he gave it that bounce. [mimics piano-and-drums groove] I think he played it three times and we were like, "That's good. You're good. Thank you!" He's that special?

Was that the label's push, to get a pro on there?

No, actually. That was Brendan O'Brien. We recorded that record in Atlanta, and we did not have "Drops of Jupiter." I wasn't a Pearl Jam fan, but there's a song called "Better Man" that was on the radio, so I asked if I could look into that producer, and it was Brendan O'Brien.

When I asked if I could get Brendan O'Brien, they laughed at me: "Dude, you're not a big enough band." He was about to record the Limp Bizkit album, and something happened where it was postponed or whatever and Fred Durst backed out, or something. So, Brendan, all of a sudden, was open and he took the project.

Chuck Leavell is also a Georgian, and he owns a tree farm in Georgia. He called Chuck because Chuck was an hour away and he came and did it, and it was that easy.

How about Paul Buckmaster? His string arrangement is gorgeous.

That was actually [music executive] Donnie Ienner's idea. When we didn't have a single, we also had an agreement in the band that we weren't to write outside the band. Which really put shackles on us, but we weren't aware of it at the time. You protect things that you end up breaking.

I was being asked to meet Donnie Ienner in New York, and he was about to say, "You have to write outside the band. It's time." Because we didn't have the hit he wanted. It was two days before that meeting when I dreamt "Drops of Jupiter."

So, I went to New York to have that meeting with him and I had a demo of it in my pocket. That's when I played it for him. At the time, Almost Famous was the biggest movie in the country and Elton John's songs were all over it. So as soon as Donnie heard the song, he was like, "Paul Buckmaster has to do the strings." He was so fired up about this whole thing.

Before I knew I would be doing this interview, I learned Leavell and Buckmaster were involved from a Rick Beato deconstruction on YouTube. Have you seen that?

Yeah, I have. It's pretty interesting!

Did it teach you anything about your own song, in a way?

You know what it taught me? Humans will overthink anything! Why did he throw that ball that way? Well, I'll tell you why! Because in fifth grade, he met a girl called Sheila! Who knows what anything is, you know?

The next tune is "It's About You."

That was an attempt to write a hit song. This is what you get stuck doing sometimes. 

Let's say you're making a sad album. Today would be different than it was when I was trying to become something. Today, you could go make a sad album and then 15 minutes later go make a different album. And you have a computer, so you can make three albums in a week, or whatever.

But when you have one chance to make an album and it potentially costs a couple of hundred thousand dollars, you start to want to feed the machine that's going to feed you. That was a song that we thought, "Man, it's got tempo and this cool drum bit and whatever."

We played it for years live and people seemed to like it because we needed that type of song, but it didn't make a huge impression on people.

I'm a songwriter myself, and I think we all have material that feels like juvenilia. It's not us anymore. Can you still inhabit the self that made this album?

Of course. It's like looking at—I wouldn't say a lesser me, but a part of me that needed to do this to be better at certain things.

My manager and I talked the other day and he was like, "Man, we're listening to these songs you wrote that didn't make the album. There's a handful of them. Your melodies are so much more complex and thought-through and better." When I think of "It's About You," I just think of [mimics goofy cadence]. There's no melody there. It's just a guy trying to rap who can't.

It's funny in some regard, but in another way, I needed to be a young guy trying to figure stuff out.

How about "Hopeless"?

That was a pretty important song to me.

Tell me about it.

When I was [touring], "Hopeless" was, like, I was hopeless. I felt hopeless all the time. It's a wild trip. The importance of love in a human body, that need for love and affection and somebody to look at you with love, is so necessary. I was writing songs just like, "Man, I'm writing as a voyeur. I'm writing somebody else's life, but it's just like a reflection of my own."

How about "Respect"?

That was a very particular song about a guy that I went to grade school who I and my friends didn't treat properly. We're friends today and I love him a lot. He's a wonderful guy. But I have a lot of regret about a certain couple of years of my young childhood life.

Not beating people up or anything. It wasn't like that. But it was "bully" enough that it excluded him. And that exclusion made us, the others, feel closer. That's what happens when kids are not kind. I really regretted that and still do, and that's what that song is about. Everybody needs respect, and now I know that, so I'm sorry.

How did he react to the song?

You know, he's such the kind of fella—he's a bodybuilder and could beat me up 1,000 times a day if he wanted. 

His lesson during that wasn't to hold a grudge, thankfully. His lesson was "I've just got to get through this," and he did. And he became a big, tough, strong guy so he wouldn't have to deal with guys like me and other people anymore. We all learned what we were supposed to, I suppose.

"Let It Roll."

That was the biggest song about my mom. That was the heartbreaking "I'm lost now." I was on tour during the "Meet Virginia" days with no cellphone, no Internet, no connection to anybody. 

The way I found out my mother was terminally ill was [through] my sister. [She] said, "Hey, so-and-so's coming to your concert tonight." She came and left me a card and the card said, "Your mom's really sick. You need to call her." 

So after the show, I went outside the venue to a payphone and just cried on the phone with my mom for an hour, with her telling me that she was going to be sick for what we hoped was going to be a long time, but it wasn't. She was gone quickly, but that's what that song is about: "I don't know how to let this thing roll, but I've just got to remember you'll be in me forever."

That's so rough, dude.

It's so f**king hardcore, dude. You don't want to have that moment ever.

"Something More."

It wasn't the magic that "Drops of Jupiter" was, but we thought it at the time. That was my speaking out against the life I was living: "I'll get through this and I'll be something more." You think you're something more right now, that you're above this, but it's going to flip.

It was at a weird time because as I said before, we were trying to write only within the band. Our drummer at the time, his name is Scott. He wasn't writing anything, so I was like, "Dude, learn how to write. We all have to write within this project. Go do it." 

So he got the keyboard and wrote the [mimics vamp] because he was a novice writer. He was writing whatever he felt in those weird minor keys and stuff. Nobody else was really writing that, so it became a fun little project to jump-start somebody's writing style.

Before we hit the last three songs, tell me what it was like to be frightened and on tour and newly famous during that boom for the music industry. I guess it was a boom, right? In the early 2000s? That high of being on stage versus sobbing on the payphone with your mom, that's such a crash to Earth.

It never really felt like a boom. It just never did. Because there's a thing that happened where "Meet Virginia," it was an underground [success]. When people find a new band, it's like ownership. I found them, I turned you on to them, you like them because of me—it's ownership. A feeling of "I just found my jam."

"Drops of Jupiter" was so big on pop radio that we almost had to transition from real fans to now pop fans. And pop fans are fickle. They deteriorate. They move on to the next thing. So, it wasn't a boom. It was a transition, and we had to figure out how to get used to it. 

Like, did we just lose all the people we gained by touring for three years with a little old song that's like a cool car? And now we're in a Bentley and they're like, 'You've changed'? We had to figure out how to navigate that.

We've got four minutes left. "Whipping Boy."

Yeah, that was me just being me. We were listening to records that were, like, Sparklehorse. At the time, Whiskeytown, when Ryan Adams just started that project, and his guitar tone. We were trying to emulate some of those vibes. That was the darker side of what we loved musically.

How about "Getaway"? 

That was my jam at the time because I got to play the vibraphone on it. It just felt "jazz" to me, and I grew up listening to jazz. That was a song kind of about my parents' relationship.

Lastly, we've got "Mississippi."

That was the sleeper. That was everybody's favorite song on the album.

Whoa.

It was "vibe." You know, nowadays—and I think it's really cool; I like where music's at—we listen to vibes. Instead of "Hey, check out this album," it's more of a playlist of things that have whatever in common. That was our vibe song. I'd like to make a record of vibe songs like "Mississippi" someday.

I've got one last question. Where did the muse—or whatever you want to call it—lead you from Drops of Jupiter?

Well, it went from "Somebody please come and help me" to finding real love. True love from somebody I'm supposed to be with. 

So then, when I wrote "Hey, Soul Sister" and "If It's Love" and the happier songs, this was also a transition because people were like, "Well, that's not the same sad guy that I remember, so I'm not sure if this is for me." And I'm like, "Well, that's good because I'm going to stay here. I don't want to go back to that other thing! Your joy is coming from real misery from me, and I've got to move on, too."

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