Jakob Dylan

Jakob Dylan

Photo: Yasmin Than

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Jakob Dylan Opens Up About The Return Of The Wallflowers & Their New Album 'Exit Wounds'

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GRAMMY-winning singer/songwriter Jakob Dylan talks about how transitions in life inspired him to return to his longtime band the Wallflowers and record a new album, 'Exit Wounds'
Joshua M. Miller
GRAMMYs
Jul 8, 2021 - 2:20 pm

Much like his famous father, singer/songwriter Jakob Dylan is a master of ambiguity and double meanings. For example, take the title of his GRAMMY-winning band the Wallflowers' first album since 2012, Exit Wounds.

"There's an image that people might have of the exit site of a bullet or an arrow, and I don't really feel that way about the title," Dylan, who has won two GRAMMYs and been nominated for six, tells GRAMMY.com. "I think that it's more about transition. I think anytime you transition from one thing to the other, you're going to have exit wounds, and you're going to give other people exit wounds."

As transitions go, Dylan recently made a big one into filmmaking: He produced the 2018 film Echo in the Canyon, which chronicled the history and lasting impact of the Laurel Canyon sound of the '60s and '70s. Despite branching off into new territory, his intention has always been to return to the band he started 30 years ago. The inspiration just had to be right.

"Once the dust settled, I waited. I don't feel compelled [to] make a record if I'm not inspired," Dylan adds. "I'm always inspired to tour and play. I'll do that as I wait for material to come." With the help of his band and producer Butch Walker, Exit Wounds, which arrives July 9, befits the band's legacy.

GRAMMY.com caught up with Dylan to discuss his return to the Wallflowers with a revamped lineup, what it was like working with singer Shelby Lynne and how the lessons from the band's self-titled 1992 debut still resonate.

This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.

You got to record some classic songs for the Echo in the Canyon soundtrack. What lessons from that experience carried over to the album?

For those songs, I was able to be an interpreter. I wasn't the writer. I got to put most of the weight on being a singer, which I hadn't really done before. And I found that I could do different things with my voice than I imagined before. I knew that I still love being in a band and playing this music. 

You have times you feel like maybe you want to try new things but singing those songs, those great songs, Buffalo Springfield and the Byrds, the Mamas & the Papas. It just got me excited to have my own songs to sing.

And we don't need any more songs, necessarily, but I want more songs for myself to sing. I want to be excited when I go out and play shows. I want new songs for those who want to hear new songs. In that regard, it was motivating to just keep doing what it is I do. 

I like being in the studio. I like creating songs. That rush never gets old. And if you've got a good song, you're off to a great start. That's what I've always tried to have when I begin.

Despite playing with a different lineup, you've said that it's very much a band record. Why do you think it feels like a Wallflowers record? 

That's up to you, but for me, what is the band? I don't know. Does a band have to be together for 20 years to be a band? Does a band have to only work within its own confines of each person to be a band for a length of time? 

I think if you put five people in a room and they make a record together for a month, that is a band. And you're working together, you're feeling each other out, you're leaning on each other's strengths and it's cohesive from the beginning to the end. 

And it has a particular sound that only those five people could create together, bouncing off one another. That's a band. Whether or not that band goes out and continues and tours the next four records, it might not. But for the time that it existed, that is a band, as opposed to making a record and having a grab bag of 50 different musicians coming and going. 

Five people together making a record: That's a band to me.

Does the Wallflowers' material have a special essence that the solo material doesn't have?

Yeah, I suppose it does. You could say it's instrumentation, but when I know I'm making Wallflowers records, certain songs occurred to me. I can't tell you why. But as much as I've worked on this band for 30 years or so, there are times I want to do something different. 

Sometimes, that just means if I tell myself it's a solo record, I'm free of accepting the guidelines of what I find the sound of the Wallflowers is. I'm able to do different things. And when I work on the Wallflowers, I have a sound in mind and it's a continuous sound that they've been carrying for 30 years, and I can change it and enhance it, but at its core, it does a certain thing. But it's usually led by the songs that start showing up to me. 

I don't start writing and thinking, "This is going to be a solo record or a Wallflowers record." Once the songs come in, they just kind of tell me what they want. And sometimes they don't want to be within the sounds of the Wallflowers. Sometimes they want to be more. There's room for everything. There's time for everything. If there's nothing else, there's time for more than I do. 

For the Wallflowers, it's something that I do, and I started that sound a long time ago. I had to do it with almost anybody. It's my voice and it's my song, and it's traditional instrumentation, guitar, bass, drums, keyboards. I can make that sound like The Wallflowers with almost any different group of people. That's the sound that lives in my head.

Read More: Butch Walker On His New Rock Opera, 'American Love Story,' And Making Amends For His "Complicit" Youth

What makes this particular lineup special or unique?

I always think it's the songs that get over or they don't. I think with this particular group of guys, I think that everybody understood that we're all here because if I'm not going to get over and these songs aren't reaching people, then there's no point in being here. And we had a good understanding of that.

You also got to work with Shelby Lynne on four of the songs. You've been a fan of hers for a while, so I imagine it was a special experience. What was it like to work with her and develop a musical chemistry?

It's not enough to just call in your favorite singer to sing with you. You have to have some kind of chemistry and purpose together. Sometimes you can just swallow each other up. So as much as I admire Shelby and I admire a lot of people, you run the risk of just not working, not sounding good, wasting each other's time. 

Shelby's a giant on her own. Her own records, she takes up a lot of space. She has a very unique voice, she's a contralto, and she has a really strong identity to the songs she writes. But she can wear a lot of hats, and she was able to switch gears and back me up versus what her normal ability is, which is to be the person out front.

I have a very strong kinship with her musically and I admire her greatly. And I appreciate very much that we sounded good together because I would have been pretty devastated had we not. I've done that before. I've had people come in and sing, and it's disappointing when you just have to face the fact that you don't sound good together. 

Fortunately, I think Shelby and I sounded great together when we started.

"Exit Wounds" to some might conjure a negative and unpleasant meaning, but you see it in a more positive light. Why do you think it's important to make that distinction?

I like words that are pliable. I like words that have multiple meanings. [The phrase] "exit wounds" to me is not negative. There's an image that people might have of the exit site of a bullet or an arrow, and I don't really feel that way about the title. 

I think that it's more about transition. I think anytime you transition from one thing to the other, you're going to have exit wounds, and you're going to give other people exit wounds. That's what life is. You don't get to be the same thing forever and not move along without some kind of pain. And sometimes that pain is required and it's necessary and it makes you a better person or takes you to a better place.

Collectively, I think you could probably say the entire planet has a lot of exit wounds. Whether you lost somebody or you changed in the last year, you're somebody different now. You got to say goodbye to whatever it was you were. And maybe you're better now. And maybe you're not, but either way, you're taking some exit wounds with you and that's how you evolve. 

That's how you change. And it's unavoidable, but it is not negative. It's not meant to be standing up on a battlefield and walking on after some horrific situation. That's not how I see it. I think you can attach that meaning to the current times, but I wouldn't. And I don't really mean to project that. I think it's more about transition.

How does songwriting help you make sense of the world?

I haven't yet. That's certainly not my goal. I just went by my songs, they're conversations, and you're working through them, but there is no end game. Nothing is resolved. I write mostly about the human condition and what I feel about it. 

I'm in the thick of it as you are or as anybody else. I explore those ideas in my songs, why we do good things, why we do bad things. Why do we do bad things when we know what the right thing to do is, we do the wrong thing. These are all things that you explore in the song, and these are conversations.

"Maybe Your Heart's Not in It No More" is one such conversation, one with your muse—your motivation. Why is that conversation important?

It's what's in your mind that keeps you moving and that drives you. It's possibly a conversation you could have with your own muse when you're asking yourself and your muse, if you're still in sync together and if you are still doing what you hope to be doing. Are you still inspired?

What were you hoping to convey on "Who's That Man Walking 'Round My Garden"?

It's tied in traditional music really, in that you're protecting something. You find something in your life that's worth protecting, your ideals, a person, whatever it is. And you find it worth protecting and you find that it's been toiled with or messed with or compromised. You might ask yourself: Who is that, or what is that, that is doing such a thing?

Next year marks the 30th anniversary of the band's debut. What do you recall of those sessions?

We were very young, and we felt we were one of the greatest rock 'n' roll groups in the world. And although it turns out that, at that young age, we certainly were not, it's the right attitude to have. 

And we had a producer, Paul Fox, who allowed us to feel that way and have that kind of attitude, which is important in music and rock 'n' roll. And while that record is flawed, I'm very proud that we did it that way. I think just two weeks' time that we rehearsed and had our songs together and we sound like a band. 

And I'm glad we came up when we did. We played it live with very few overdubs. We just thought that's how bands do it. We thought that was the whole point. No one told us yet that you could spend six months in the studio exploring. It's good to have that experience where you're relying only on your own abilities and not the studio as an additional instrument.

What advice would you have for newer bands?

Records should not be a burden to make. There should be a lot of joy in making them. And you can have a good time making a record and do great things at the same time. 

I think a lot of young bands are taught that records are supposed to be really difficult to make, and that's totally inaccurate. They can be, and you can get great results doing that, but it's not required. You can have a good time making a record and do stuff that you find to be meaningful and deep.

Jakob Dylan Talks 'Echo In The Canyon,' Tom Petty & Why You Can't Define California Sound

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Rise Against

Rise Against

Photo: Jason Siegel

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Rise Against's Tim McIlrath On The Deterioration Of The American Dream & Why He's Rallying For The 'Nowhere Generation'

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With their new album 'Nowhere Generation,' rockers Rise Against sought to create a rallying cry for younger generations—and anyone barred from the American Dream
Joshua M. Miller
GRAMMYs
Jul 12, 2021 - 9:03 am

When Rise Against's Tim McIlrath talks to his fans and teenage daughters, a troubling throughline emerges: how difficult it is to achieve the American Dream. 

"These ideas kept coming up," the singer and guitarist tells GRAMMY.com. "These anxieties about what tomorrow's going to look like, and also just the weight, they felt they were waking up with every day." Because of this, McIlrath says, the ideal and reality of the American Dream are pulling further apart.

After hearing those repeated concerns, he decided enough was enough. So on their latest album, Nowhere Generation, which was released June 4, Rise Against takes a stand against these demoralizing, capitalistic forces. "We are the nowhere generation/We are the kids that no one wants," he sings in the title track. "We are a credible threat to the rules you set/A cause to be alarmed."

"I think the Nowhere Generation concept is giving [a voice] to the fears of the younger generation," McIlrath says. "What they've communicated to me is that they feel like they are being asked to run this race while the finish line just keeps moving on them." Because of this, "I wanted to give that perspective a platform and a voice and create a song that was speaking to that sentiment."

To coincide with Rise Against's recent appearance at the GRAMMY Museum's Programs at Home series, available now on COLLECTION:live, GRAMMY.com spoke to McIlrath about the process of writing honest and authentic lyrics about the collective struggle, returning to the road in their 20th year as a band and why young people shouldn't feel alone in their fight.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

What was your biggest inspiration for writing "Nowhere Generation"?

When we would talk to our fans, the theme was apparent. These ideas kept coming up. This idea of these anxieties about what tomorrow's going to look like, and also the weight they felt they were waking up with every day. 

The more I examined that, the more I realized that there's a lot of evidence and a lot of good reasons to feel that weight. Whether it's living in a time that has normalized the idea that one can work full-time and still live below the poverty level or living in a time where we're expected to accept the idea of concentrated wealth and the rise of the one percent. 

Living in a time where we're dealing with global warming and climate change, and society's response or lack of response to it. A number of other elements have contributed to this downwardly mobile landscape.

How did these conversations help you be more honest and authentic as a songwriter?

I think that having a relationship with our audience helps that. I think being a father of two teenagers gives me a bit of a crash course in it as well—and then just talking to the band about it.

It's amazing how many people have their own stories—their own things to add to this narrative. It takes on a life of its own. People talk about what it's like to feel like they're swimming upstream as they try to get ahead. They started asking questions like, "Why? Why does it feel like this? What's happening?"

What parallels do you see with your own experience?

I grew up in a relatively stable time politically, economically and socially, and I think we took a lot of that for granted. That's what made [succeeding] generations less sympathetic to these concerns. I think that we all think, 'Well, this is life. It's hard, and you figure it out,' without acknowledging 'Is life different? Is the experience different now than it was before? Are we living in a society that is ripping the crops out without replanting the seeds for the future?' 

That's what's happening now. I think that we're starting to realize the new and unique obstacles to getting ahead in today's world. Young people are less likely to own a home or have savings. That is keeping people from being able to pursue that American Dream.

"Nowhere Generation" reminded me of the Replacements' "Bastards of Young." A song about people that are trying to find a place in the world.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite songs. I think you're right. I think people feel a little bit lost. And "Nowhere Generation" is speaking to people who are trying to figure out where they fit in the landscape nowadays, if they fit in at all. 

And I talked about young people, but you don't need to be young to relate to this idea. For people my age, older than me, if you were part of this generation that is sort of falling victim to the short-term way of thinking instead of long-term, then you're part of the Nowhere Generation.

On the song "The Numbers," and elsewhere on the album, you remind the listener that they're not alone in this fight. Why do you think that's important, especially entering into this post-pandemic world?

I think it's pointing out things like, despite its flaws, democracy is still our most effective way of governing. Giving voice to the people is still the best way we've figured out for human society to function. But it definitely requires those voices. It requires that voice. I think that not only that voice, but social movements throughout history have given rise to a lot of the ideas and concepts that we take for granted today.

"The Numbers" is reminding people that, no, you don't need to take it from us. There's a lot of evidence of individuals or groups that have put their hand on the steering wheel of history. And it shows them for the better. And that progress is often the result of somebody simply being fed up and trying to demand that they be listened to. 

We still have a government that's based on voting. It's people that need to be listened to. "The Numbers" reminds people that no matter how helpless you feel, your voice is still one of the most powerful gears of governance.

That song opens with a sample from "The Internationale." Why did you think that it fits with the album? And how can history be part of the solution?

Especially with a song like "The Numbers," it was talking about the people. "The Internationale" has always been an anthem of working-class people. It has been used by many different countries and [adapted into] most popular languages. 

I thought it was a good way to show the listener just how timeless some of these concepts really are. It turned into a great way to start the song and to start the album. It sets a good tone.

What was the most challenging song to write?

One of the last ones I got to was "Broken Dreams, Inc." I feel like I was out of ideas by the time I got into that one. I'd sit there for a while until one day I started writing that chorus and then the rest of it just fell out of me. But it took me a long time to get around to. I was almost going to give up on the song. Then, it all came together as one of the best songs on the album.

The band worked with GRAMMY-nominated creative director Brian Roettinger for the visual aspects of the album. Was it important to have a universal look and feel?

We wanted this era of Rise Against to be defined by a look that people would recognize. If you were to look back at it, you would see the imagery around development. You would know specifically that this was this era of Rise Against. 

And part of the way of doing that was working with a single person instead of many different people, which is what we've done in the past: Someone for the album, someone for the video, someone for the live look, someone for the merchandise and that. [They're all] great people, but this is way more universal and cohesive.

I recently read the story of a Chicago fan who was so inspired by the band's music that he became a lawyer. What does it mean to see that tangible impact?

Seeing things like that is the best part of being in this band because you write these songs hoping that they land with people. [That they don't] just listen to it, but actually connect with it. Not everybody connects with it. It's just not the way it always turns out. 

When somebody does, it really takes this song that you pull out of thin air—you just made up—and turns it into something real and tangible. It validates the effort that you put in. It helps that person, but it also helps you as the writer of it to know, "Alright, there was a reason that put these words out to the world. They found somebody and they helped shape their path."

Have you stayed in touch with him?

No, it was just a very quick and random interaction at a coffee shop. We ate there, we just ran into each other on the street. But the story stuck with me.

The band's debut album turned 20 this year. What does that milestone mean to you?

It really puts a fine point on just how long we've been doing this. [It causes me to] look back on those days where we've come from, looking back on those songs, how we've grown musically, and sonically, and how Rise Against snowballed into what it is from some pretty humble beginnings. 

I don't think that the guys that made that record had any idea of what was ahead of them. That we would be touching the lives of people that were being born that year, or the years after that. That's something that I never thought we'd be playing shows for the babies that were born the same year the debut album came out.

Why do you think the band's sound is still effective all these years later?

That's a good question. I think punk rock has always been dark and angsty. And it's always been our response to mainstream music. And even no matter how popular it gets, it's still always going to have those roots, that it's something that was created in response. It's something that was created by people who felt like they didn't hear what they wanted to hear on the radio. They created their own thing, and I think that will always resonate with the outsider.

The band just announced tour dates for later this year. What does it mean to be able to get back on the road?

It means the world to us; it's really incredible. Especially during some of the darkest times, the pandemic, we wondered when our show would ever happen. If it would ever happen again. To see it actually getting greenlit, seeing the lights turn back on, that's pretty emotional. And I imagine it will be an emotional experience to play these shows again.

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Jim James

Jim James

Photo: Erika Goldring/WireImage via Getty Images

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My Morning Jacket's Jim James On Nature, Love & Existential New Self-Titled Album

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Singer/songwriter Jim James talks about how My Morning Jacket's hiatus and 2019 reunion led to the band's new self-titled new album—plus how we should stop living so much in the digital world and embrace nature and love
Joshua M. Miller
GRAMMYs
Sep 14, 2021 - 1:00 pm

Sometimes a little self-love can go a long way to connecting with the world around us. That's one of the key messages of My Morning Jacket's latest single "Love Love Love," from the band's new self-titled album due out Oct. 22.

"'Love Love Love' is just about trying to spread as much love as you can, but that it starts with you standing up for and loving yourself," singer/songwriter Jim James tells GRAMMY.com. "I want to try and spread as much positivity as I or we can, which obviously isn't always easy."

The new album is the band's first collection of new music since they recorded The Waterfall and The Waterfall II, released in 2015 and 2020, respectively, but recorded during the same sessions.

It finds the band rediscovering and embracing their passion for playing together after time apart doing their own projects. The band decided to self-produce, which allowed them total freedom to let the songs breathe and develop over two multi-week sessions at Los Angeles-based studio 64 Sound.

"It was a beautiful experience, and we were so fortunate to get to spend some time together just the five of us reconnecting with each other as friends and making music together," he says. "We had been apart for a while as a band and were not sure what the future held and so it was such magic to find ourselves together again and laughing and sharing and creating."

GRAMMY.com caught up with James to talk about the importance of breaking free from technology and embracing the natural world, how the band found complete freedom in self-producing the album, and more.

How have you grown the most as a songwriter and individual during the past year and a half?

At least for me, it has just reinforced my love of nature, my desire to really focus my time with the people that mean the most to me. I really tried to stop doing things that I felt like I was obligated to do. I feel like just so much in life we run around almost in an unconscious way.

The pandemic has, at least for me, introduced this new level of consciousness, of trying to be super aware of how I'm spending my time. It kind of brought this new awareness that we don't have forever, and the future is not guaranteed. And that we really need to make every day count, and really spend it with people that we love, and doing things that we love.

Speaking of love, the new single on the new album is "Love Love Love," which is about positivity and love for one another. Why is it important to keep a level of hope and positivity?

"Love Love Love" is just about trying to spread as much love as you can, but that it starts with you standing up for and loving yourself. I want to try and spread as much positivity as I or we can, which obviously isn't always easy. I tend to write a lot about feeling lost or sad or like I don't fit in. But I also want to weave messages of hope or positivity in there which I hope could maybe get through to someone else who may be feeling lost or sad and let them know there is a way out of the sadness…that things can and do change.

Life can be so hard, and it can be easier to dwell on the tough times, but I feel like it's also our sacred duty to celebrate when things are good, to name those feelings and those moments and speak them out loud. Like, "Wow this is such a beautiful moment!" or being sure to tell our loved ones how much we love them and how special they are.

I think also along with this, we need to all start meeting each other in the middle more. [We need to] turn off the cable news channels and listen to each other more and recognize our shared humanity and resonance with all the other beings and this beautiful planet before it's too late.

The sentiment lyrically is just to stand up for yourself, learn to love yourself and then use that to spread as much love to others as possible.

How would you describe the song's development?

It started in two different directions. One was a sort of moody psychedelic thing and the other was this propulsive electronic beat I was working on. Somewhere along the way I decided to merge the two in the demo I sent to the band. We ended up making it a more live organic electric hybrid thing by performing around the drum programming I had created originally.

There was a point where you and the band weren't sure if you'd ever release another album. However, reuniting for a few shows in 2019 including a couple at Red Rocks helped reignite the spark. How did all that help convince everyone to get back into the studio?

I think it just really showed us that balance is so important to life. I feel like life just got so out of balance for so long that I had to find a way to create that balance. I was really bad at saying yes to too many things, and then getting just too beaten down by life.

I didn't have the energy I needed for the things I loved, because I was saying yes to too many different things. So, I think once we had taken some time away, and weren't so beaten down by the schedule of the band, we were able to feel the energy again and feel the essence of playing together.

The band made a concerted effort to capture the raw energy from the band's live performance in the recordings. Why was that important?

We just kind of went in with no pressure on ourselves. And no goal, really, other than to have fun and just try things. Also, it was just the five of us together, which was really special, too. It just enabled us to kind of focus on our friendship and the energy between us in this really special way that kind of just removed all the pressure.

And we got to spend some nice time [together], just letting things fly and trying out ideas. And just enjoying the gift of friendship, and the gift to being able to play, create music together. I think that resulted in a lot of moments that were really beautiful, that just felt really spontaneous.

And there were live moments where we're having fun performing for each other as if we were performing live in front of a crowd. Because sometimes I feel like in the studio, some of that can get lost. You can get nervous, or you can get too hyper-focused on things. We tried to have a really laid-back atmosphere, which I think really helped.

I imagine that helped the songs develop naturally, without any pressure.

Yeah, I think it really did. I had a ton of different ideas that we tried. So many different things. And seeing things work, or just some things don't work. That's kind of the fun thing, also, about it just being the five of us, is that it was fine if something didn't work. Because it was only us analyzing it, and not feeling the pressure or really feeling disappointed if something didn't work. We were able to just move on and to the next thing.

Why did the band pick the 64 Sound studio to record the album?

It felt like a classic, real homemade kind of feel to it. They've got some great gear in there. They really let us be in there and helped us set up and get going and stuff, and then left us alone, which was what we really wanted and needed.

We kind of need a room that's big enough where we can all sit in it and see each other. And the room was kind of the perfect size because it's not giant. It's a really nice-sized room we can fit a band in, and all band gear, and just have enough options to be able to get great sounds, and all play together in this really cool way.

At what point did you realize it would be such an existential album lyrically and thematically? Do you think you're better able to articulate your thoughts on these types of topics compared to past albums?

I'm not sure. it all just flows, or it doesn't, and I try not to question it. It just flows and then I have to spend time with it and nurture it and bring it into the real world and then let it flow some more. I'm not the kind of songwriter who can sit down and deliberately make something happen or change. It just has to be nurtured and then it will flow, or it will stop flowing. [Laughs.]

I have piles of really cool song ideas that I love where, for whatever reason, it just stopped flowing. But that's also the cool thing is that sometimes I'll pick up an old idea from ten years ago and it will start to flow again. Magic. Or not. [Laughs.]

The album starts with "Regularly Scheduled Programming," which is about becoming numb to reality through technology. Why was that topic important to explore?

I just feel like we've all gotten swept away in this tidal wave of technology, and that we're all drowning. Drowning in social media, in streaming content and all this stuff that's supposed to make our lives better. I feel like social media is tearing us apart. And people forget their own dreams, and their own creativity, because they wash it all away each night, binge watching streaming and stuff like that. And I write that from being washed away myself. I found this moment where I saw how washed away I was getting.

I was missing out on so many great things and life. Missing out on nature, missing out on connecting with people that I love, and missing out on sitting and playing the guitar. Or meditating or reading a book. All these things that I feel like really connect us to our own souls, and to the soul of the planet and the universe, and the souls of each other, kind of reminding us that we're all one. And I feel like all of this technology is really separating us, and really making us all greedier. To lust for more followers, for more devices.

There is this illusion that social media makes us all more connected, when in fact it is ripping us and the planet apart, which is a shame, because social media could be a very helpful tool—if we could all learn to use it like a tool—literally check it out for five minutes a day or whatever. [We could use it] just to see what events, music, etcetera are happening or spread good messages for equality and progress and peace and love.

Instead, it becomes this terrible addiction designed to make as much money as it can off of you by making you feel as bad as possible and like you need the products they are pushing to make you feel better.

I think that is the problem at the heart of most of this new tech, which could be really great for us. Like music streaming—brilliant idea and a wonderful service but they still cannot pay artists fairly for their work. At the heart of all of this is greed.

I think in general a lot of what I am trying to say in my lyrics is really about trying to get folks to get off their devices and spend more time in nature and spend more time connecting with real people.

At least for me, spending more time in nature, meditating, and being with the people I love makes me feel like a healthier more creative person. And in "Regularly Scheduled Programming" I am just trying to say wake up to love before it is too late.

I really like the ["Regularly Scheduled Programming"] lyrics "Diamonds are growing in the garden / Raindrops are filling up the sea" and "One shot at redemption: a mighty and sacred love." Why did you pick those nature images?

I was trying to illustrate what folks were missing in the real world and out in nature while they were busy staring at their phones or devices. Like look at these beautiful dew drops in the garden! Or look at those same drops filling up the sea and keeping us all alive—the miracle of water!

I am trying to say in that song: "Look up! Look out! Look to nature and look within yourself! learn to love yourself! Look to love before it's too late!" There is also the message and a wish that we could be more responsible as we evolve. It is so sad to me that all of this tech could even be powered by nature—the sun, the wind and the water—but instead we are still chained to the greed of the fossil fuel industries and other destructive energetic methods.

With "Complex" you talk about the anxiety of feeling you're missing a piece of the puzzle. What about puzzles as a metaphor do you find appealing and fitting of recent times?

I think everyone can agree we live in complex times. The divide and conquer methods of this sort of extreme capitalism are working too well on people and we are being torn apart. People are taught to care more about the dollar than their fellow human being. We have all these bots and misinformation swirling on these social media platforms that folks spend hours a day on. How do we get out of this complex web we have found ourselves caught up in?

I am not saying I have it all figured out by any means. I struggle with it all too on a daily basis. But I do think one of the answers to the riddle for us all, no matter what side you may think you are on, is for us all to turn off the device and get out into nature. Or if for some reason you cannot get out into nature, turn off the device and just sit there. Just be and listen to what your soul and the universe really have to say.

"I do think one of the answers to the riddle for us all, no matter what side you may think you are on, is for us all to turn off the device and get out into nature… Just be and listen to what your soul and the universe really have to say." Jim James

"In Color" talks about the importance of everyone coming together no matter where they come from. Why is that important? What are some ways people can get to that goal?

"In Color" is just about celebrating our differences. The fact that there are so many wonderful beings of every shape, size, color, and belief should be seen as a great thing! And I think it really is. We should all be so happy that there are so many wondrous and amazing people of all walks of life that we can learn from and love. But instead, because of this classic divide and conquer B.S. that works so well, we end up with hate and division.

Again, I think it's time we start listening to real people more and get off the social media opinion streams and misinformation fountains of filth and hatred that spew forth from this monster called the internet that we have created.

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David Crosby

David Crosby

Photo: Anna Webber

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David Crosby On His New Album 'For Free' & Why His Twitter Account Is Actually Joyful

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David Crosby has had a rough go of it recently, losing his income, a child and nearly his house. So why does his new album, 'For Free,' sound so springy, joyful and enamored with the gift of human existence?
Morgan Enos
GRAMMYs
Jul 22, 2021 - 1:23 pm

The music community murmurs about David Crosby's Twitter account like it's a mythical sea monster. To many people online, he's the consummate curmudgeon, an octogenarian sourpuss who shares his dislike for hip-hop and shared his disapproval of the Phoebe Bridgers guitar smash on TV. (Bridgers' retort: "Little b****.") While that vibe is certainly present, a cursory look at Twitter reveals the opposite: An 80-year-old rolling around with his dogs, digging into tacos by the pool and giving thanks for the gift of life.

"It's a game I'm playing, really," Crosby tells GRAMMY.com from his Santa Ynez, California, home on a "stunning" day. "I love my friends and my family and I'm trying to be a decent member of society. I've got no problem with me right now. Since I am here today, all I want to do is use today to do whatever I can to make stuff better." Despite a series of recent, brutal tests, he sounds lighter than ever over the phone — and his new music is his bounciest and most galvanized to date.

We're talking about For Free, his new album which arrives July 23 and represents the brightest star in his recent constellation of albums. (In the 2010s, he put out the good-to-excellent Croz, Lighthouse, Sky Trails and Here If You Listen.) Aside from the elegiac closer, "I Won't Stay For Long," the mood is inexhaustibly upbeat, whether he's covering his beloved Joni Mitchell on the title track or teaming up with his hero Donald Fagen on "Rodriguez for a Night."

Ahead of his performance at the GRAMMY Museum, GRAMMY.com spoke with Crosby about what Twitter teaches him, why he recently sold his catalog and why he's not really a grumpy contrarian, but a man enamored with music and human beings.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

How are you, David?

Elderly and confused! No, I'm fine, man. I'm sitting up here in central California and it's a stunning day. I'm a very happy guy. How are you?

I'm good. I'm originally from around your area. Is the heatwave still happening?

No, it's not real drastic, no. It's OK. It's in the 70s someplace.

Some people tend to paint your Twitter account as being cantankerous, but I find it to be the opposite. It's all about appreciating life as you just described it. It's a very joyful account to me.

To me, it is too, man. Every once in a while, I take a shot at somebody I don't like when they get really pretentious and blown-up. The Kanye Wests of this world, I'll occasionally stick a pin in their balloon. But mostly, I'm not trying to be Howard Stern. I'm really trying to just have fun here. I like people. I think they're fascinating. I like communicating with people.

The other thing about Twitter is that if someone tries to pick a fight, you just delete them. You don't have to deal with it. I don't have to engage in a fisticuffs battle with someone who thinks QAnon is real, for God's sake. If you're that dumb, I don't have to waste my time with you! I like that a lot. It makes it more fun.

It's interesting that you willfully open yourself up to both good people and the lowest common denominator of your fanbase.

Well, some of them are fascinating. You've got to remember: There are both kinds on here. There are Trumpers and other kinds of people who just don't understand what's going on. But there are a ton of fascinating people there too, man. People I've found up being friends with. That's where I met Steve Silberman, my friend from San Francisco. I met him on the Net.

You do meet people. It takes a while. You have to watch what they say and then you get a glimpse of who they are. Then, you test them out. You send something, they respond to it and you eventually suss out who's who. I have actually found some very fascinating people there, and I enjoy it. I like it.

I've seen Steve's tweets. He seems like a sweet guy.

He's a really bright guy. He used to write for Wired. He wrote the best book that anyone's ever written on autism. It's called NeuroTribes. It's a very scientific book, but it's written so well. It reads like a mystery novel. He won some awards with it and stuff. If you're interested in autism, I highly recommend it.

You recently sold your catalog to Irving Azoff. I've seen a lot of opinions out there as to why artists are doing this in droves, much of it misguided. Beyond the financial reality of it, what do you think this deal might do for your catalog and legacy?

It doesn't enrich my catalog or my legacy. I didn't want to do it. I did it because I had to. Here's what happened: We had two ways of making money: Touring, records. Streaming came along; streaming doesn't pay us. It's like you did your job for a month and they paid you a nickel. You'd be pissed. We're pissed. It's a wrong thing.

They threw half of our income away. Half. Gone. So then, we're trying to keep our heads up and we say, "OK, we'll be grateful we can still play live because we're paying the rent and taking care of our families. It's all good." And then, here comes COVID-19, and we can't play live!

What the hell was I supposed to do? I've got a family. I've got a home. I didn't want to lose my house. I don't want them to throw me out in the street. Are you kidding? I take this responsibility seriously. I love these people. I'm trying to do my job. So I did the one thing I could do: I sold my publishing.

Now, the reason everybody did it at the same time is a little more prosaic. A little more grubby. Everybody did it when they did it not because they were out of money like me, but because they know their taxes are all going to be different next year. In the case where you're doing a deal like $300 million, well, you're talking a $10, $20 million difference in taxes. So of course, they did it when they could get that advantage.

Regarding streaming, do you think the other shoe will drop?

I do not. I do not think it will change. I think all content — audio and video — will be streaming.

What happened, man, is they thought the technology up. They went to the record companies and they said, "Imagine no physical object." The record companies, who are not stupid, said "That'd be wonderful! No packaging? No pressing plants? No shipping! No returns! Nothing! We just send a signal and collect the money?"

They said, "What do we have to do to do that?" The streamers said, "You have to change the pay structure. You're paying all that money to these rich rock stars. You have to pay it to us instead." The record companies said, "We can do that! All you'd have to do to get us to do that is give us a piece of your company!" And they did. 

The reason the record business is doing just fine on paper is they're making a f***ing ton of money. Except they're not sharing it with the people who make the music. So, that's why we did it. I didn't want to. That's the one thing that I own. I didn't want to sell it. Of course, I didn't.

The Cameron Crowe documentary Remember My Name showed how you live modestly in a comfortable home. You don't live in the lap of luxury.

Yeah. It is comfortable, and you're right, it's not grandiose. I live in a little adobe house in the middle of a cow pasture, in the middle of a clump of trees. But it's really pretty and really peaceful and really sweet. We've been planting these plants and trees for 25 years and we love it a whole lot. So, yeah, we didn't want to lose it.

Clearly, having to sell your sailboat was heartbreaking.

Yeah, that hurt. I've had a lot of painful stuff in the last couple of years. Things couldn't go right.

Leaving CSN, I feel, was a very good thing, but very hard. I didn't like the guys. Nash and I were really not getting along at all. 

So, I'm kind of glad I did it, but the following couple of years have been hard. Financially hard, physically hard — a lot of physical stuff going on. I lost a son, which was just painful to a level that's hard to describe. And I, frankly, am very worried about my country. I think we're in a lot of trouble. I think it's better than it was, but I think we've got some real problems.

But, you know, I'm not whining and sniveling here, man. I'm lucky that I'm alive. Let's start there. There's a very good chance I wouldn't be. And I am, and I'm grateful for it. I'm lucky that I get a family that's wonderful, and I love them. 

I'm lucky that I can still sing. That's sheer luck. I did everything wrong. There's no excuse. And yet, here I am and I can sing. What do I do? I don't know if I've got two weeks or 10 years. I do know that I'm here right now. And if I concentrate on that, I can still have a lot of fun right now, today, making art that's good.

Frankly, man, the world is in kind of s*** shape. There's a lot of stuff wrong. Music's a lifting force. It makes things better.

That's what I feel when I listen to For Free. The music is so bouncy and galvanized. It seems like a tribute to the way music can be a counterweight to boredom and suffering.

Yeah, that's the idea. Yes, the record does feel like that, mostly. We didn't have a plan, man, but we certainly like it. That's what we certainly want to do: Be as joyful as we possibly can.

The best song on the record isn't joyful. It's thoughtful and sad and spooky and beautiful: "I Won't Stay For Long." There's a joy to that, too: That's how good [my son and collaborator] James [Raymond] has grown up to be.

And that seems like another part of the record's essence: Your love and admiration for your family, friends and fellow musicians.

It's a thing that happens to me, man. I wrote "Wooden Ships" with Stephen Stills and Paul Kantner. At the time, it just sort of happened. But in retrospect, I realize that's really a good thing. The other guy always thinks of something you didn't. It widens your palette of colors. It widens the possible reality that you're addressing. It's an excellent idea.

Most people take all the credit and all the money and they play it that way. [affects smarmy tone] "I'm the one who did it. Just me." I think my willingness, my joy at writing with these other people have extended my useful life as a writer for about 10 years, 20 years. And that's really a good thing, because here I am. I'm 80 years old, I've got a really good record ready to drop and I'm working on two more.

How has James developed as a songwriter and musician over the years?

He's written a ton of good songs with me. Frankly, a lot of the best stuff I've done in the last 20 years — Crosby & Nash; Crosby, Stills & Nash; the Croz record; the Sky Trails record; and now this record. He's matured as a writer. That's the best song on the record, "I Won't Stay For Long." No question.

It gave me shivers earlier.

Oh, my god. It's a beautiful song. He nailed it. Am I proud of him? Yes, I am. Am I grateful that he's still my joyful pal? Yes, I am. I just got off the phone with him. We're a really good match. The only weird thing about the relationship with James is that he's the adult and I'm the kid.

How's that?

Well, there's a rumor that I was going to grow up, but it just didn't really pan out. I'm not really a very adult person. I'm sort of like the nine-year-old in the relationship and he's the 30-year-old. He's the designated driver. He's a much more serious person than I am and definitely smarter.

David Crosby

David Crosby performing with the Byrds in 1965. Photo: CBS via Getty Images

On the topic of your family — and feel free to not broach this at all — I was thinking about Beckett and the saddening news about him. Losing a child is tragic on any level, but I was thinking that it must have kicked up extra-complicated emotions since another couple raised him.

Yeah, very tough. He was a nice kid. If you'd have known him, you would have been devastated, because he was a shiny, brainy, funny, laughing, curious, sweet, extremely bright kid. He and his sister, that was me and [my wife] Jan [Dance] trying to be good human beings and share the joy that we had.

We had Django; that was a stunning kid. Melissa [Etheridge] and Julie [Cypher] came to visit us and said "Oh my god, how do you get one of those?" Jan pointed at me, and they said "Wha… you kidding?" And she said, "No, he'll do it." I thought it over and I said "Yeah." We liked them a lot. They had been together for nine years or something. They looked stable and good. It seemed to us that lesbians have just the right to have kids as anybody else.

So, we volunteered to do that and the kids were stunners. Bailey [Jean Cypher] is just an absolutely brilliant girl, and beautiful. Beckett was the same. Bright and beautiful. Well, it didn't go well for that family. They wound up fighting each other, Melissa and Julie. That's not good, and he wound up being unhappy and he went out in the world and ran into some fentanyl that killed him.

It's a bitter pill, man. There's nothing you can do to make it light or funny or good. It's just awful.

Well, the joyful thing I can think of is in Beckett's life. You mentioned your insatiable curiosity about the human condition, which stretches through your work. I imagine the apple didn't fall from the tree with those kids, since you describe them as so brilliant.

Mm-hmm. Yep. The visits here were a lot of fun. They got along very well with Django and we were a joyous bunch together. 

From Croz to Lighthouse to Sky Trails to Here if You Listen to For Free, the throughline, to me, is you holding onto life kicking and screaming: "Please give me more years on the planet. Don't take music away from me. I love my house and family and dogs and horses. The world is largely a beautiful place."

That's a really clear read on it, man. That's good. You can do my eulogy. It is like that. It's just like that. I'm very grateful and I'm going to keep working until I drop. It's more fun than sitting around waiting to drop.

All these people are like, "Crosby's such a bitter old man!" and I'm like, "What are you talking about? He's more positive than anybody my age!"

I try to be, man. There's a certain curmudgeon thing that's fun to do. To be a crabby old man. [affects geriatric voice] "You kids don't know nothin'!" That kind of thing. It's fun and I'll do it to a degree, but it's a game I'm playing, really. 

I feel good. I feel good about the choices that I make and I feel good about my life. I feel good about what I think is valuable. I'm behaving relatively sanely. I have a good time. I smoke a little pot; it doesn't seem to hurt anything. I love my friends and my family and I'm trying to be a decent member of society. I've got no problem with me right now. Since I am here today, all I want to do is use today to do whatever I can to make stuff better.

We're arguably living through the most turbulent era since the '60s, but back then, someone like CSNY would write "Ohio" and it'd be on the radio within days. It doesn't seem like culture is stepping up to produce work that reflects or shapes the times. Do you feel that way, and if so, is it frustrating to watch?

Yeah, to a degree, I do feel that way. I wish the art were addressing the situation more. You see people being very brave. This Greta Thunberg girl is so brave out there telling the truth. 

You think, "Geez, why aren't the adults going along?" Well, we've got a whole bunch of people in our government who don't even believe global warming's real and couldn't care less anyway. They want power, and they're going to try to stop everything Joe Biden and the Democrats want to do to address it. Not because it's wrong, but because they want to stop everything the Democrats want to do. It's about power. It's not about the subject at all. 

And in so doing, they're ruining us and the rest of the world, many of whom are trying to do the right thing. It's a tough situation. Tough. I don't know how it's going to play out. The point is, if you can read and think, you'd better get down to your voting office and vote as often and as responsibly as humanly possible.

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Annika Wells

Annika Wells

Photo: Graham Wolff

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Annika Wells On Writing For BTS, Her Advice For Singer/Songwriters & The Secret Value Of Making People Mad

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Even when writing for massive artists like BTS, Annika Wells' MO isn't to appeal to the masses, but to be herself — even when it pisses a few people off
Morgan Enos
GRAMMYs
Jul 6, 2021 - 4:12 pm

Annika Wells' songs have been breathed by artists that 99% of us could only fantasize about working with — including the titans of K-pop, BTS. And the 25-year-old got there not by trying to appeal to everybody at once, but by entertaining herself first and foremost — and trusting that the right audience will find her in the end.

"My favorite art is art that's made somebody mad. It means you're saying something new," the Angeleno tells GRAMMY.com over Zoom with a grin. "It's not like I'm trying to weird people out, or not not trying to weird people out. I'm saying exactly what I'm thinking and somebody somewhere is going to resonate with it."

"I would rather make one person's favorite song than 100 people's song they put on in the background when they go about their day," she adds.

For most musicians, unbending devotion to unfettered expression might leave their work unheard in the catacombs of Bandcamp. But Wells cultivated a large audience by dealing in universal concepts, like getting over heartbreak and taking a bite out of life. This applies not only to her work with BTS and Steve Aoki ("The Truth Untold"), the Jonas Brothers ("Like It's Christmas") and BAYNK ("go with u"), but her mouthy, personality-first singles under her own name, like "F**k Being Sober" and "Love Sucks."

Read on for an in-depth interview with Wells about how she entered BTS's orbit, why pleasing everyone is a no-no for artists and why finding success in the music business means "pounding down every door" until one swings open.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Can you talk about your songwriting process, as opposed to your performing process?

I've written for people like BTS, ILLENIUM, Hailee Steinfeld, Maggie Lindemann — a lot of people in the pop sphere. Songwriting has always been my original love. Since I was about eight years old, I've been writing music and have always known that's what I wanted to do. I absolutely love writing for myself and I also love helping other people's stories come to light. Songwriting in any capacity is my passion.

Writing for BTS sounds intense. What's that like?

I actually didn't write with them in the room, especially because they're abroad most of the time. Boy bands and girl bands' schedules are absolutely insane. It's pretty hard to get in a room with them. That session was actually a quick song in how it came about.

I wrote this ballad with one of my friends I went to Berklee College of Music with. He texted me that morning and was like, "Come join this session! Come over to my friend's place!" I was like, "Sure." We ended up writing this song about this unrequited love he had. We all loved it and the song sat around for six months.

Nobody was really picking it up. It's really hard to write a song for a pitch. Nobody was taking a bite. And then, out of the blue, one of the people we wrote it with, their publisher [made a series of connections] and got the song to BTS. [When we heard] BTS wanted to cut it, we were like, "What! That's crazy!" 

It ended up being this collab with Steve Aoki and the song did incredibly well. It was such a cool surprise! I didn't get the opportunity to work with them in person, but it's funny how these opportunities all come about. You never know when something big can happen!

Do you write on a piano? On a guitar? With a digital audio workstation?

All of the above. I started writing on piano. I took classical piano lessons for about 10 years and that has always been my principal instrument. 

But I've been actually writing on guitar recently because I don't know the instrument that well. I've never taken lessons. I feel like with piano, I always overthink it because I know the instrument so well. With guitar, there's room for me to play something wrong and have that mistake be cool. So, it's been fun to write for guitar recently.

Besides BTS, who else have you written for lately?

In the last year, it's been difficult, obviously, to collaborate. I've gone back to working with some people. I've been working a bit with Chloe Lilac, who's an amazing independent artist in New York. I have some stuff coming up on BAYNK's new album. Obviously, ILLENIUM and I are always collaborating. I actually had my first in-person session yesterday, which was so much fun because I'm fully vaccinated. I'm excited to finally get back into this.

What about the songs you write for yourself? Do you delineate between the two when you write, or is an Annika song just an Annika song?

There's definitely an indescribable aspect to it when it feels like me. The music I put out as myself is so deeply personal, and it's kind of the difference [between] "Am I going to tell an absolutely true story today or am I going to put on my imagination hat?" Not necessarily to make something up, but to connect to a real-life experience and tell a story that's not exactly my own.

How would you describe your voice as a songwriter?

My voice, I think, is kind of quirky. "Abrasive" sounds like too abrasive a word, but I think in some ways, it kind of is. 

I want to peel back this veil of what we're supposed to say. Trying to look cool or trying to not embarrass myself. I just want to say what the f*** is on my mind. What I'm actually thinking. It's more about saying what I actually want to say rather than thinking about what the audience wants to hear, and inevitably, an audience does come out of the woodwork that wants to hear that.

My favorite art is art that's made somebody mad. It means you're saying something new. Somebody's getting pissed off by it. It's not like I'm trying to weird people out, or not not trying to weird people out. I'm saying exactly what I'm thinking and somebody somewhere is going to resonate with it.

I would rather make one person's favorite song than 100 people's song they put on in the background when they go about their day.

Which songwriters are you checking out lately?

Julia Michaels has always been a favorite of mine. I've been obsessed with her and Justin Tranter since I was in high school. I remember my mom somehow found an article about Justin Tranter and was like, "You need to hear about this guy! You're going to love him!" I became obsessed with their writing style. I love how Julia started this new era of speaking so colloquially—those talking lyrics.

I also love Coldplay. Chris Martin has inspired so many melodies and also piano voicings. I absolutely love their voicings and how they use these pop chords, but if you actually look at the inversions and structures, it's really complex but they communicate in a way that's so accessible.

Anyone from, say, the '50s through the '80s?

My favorite album of all time is Ella and Louis. That one absolutely stabbed me in the heart. That's the first record I ever bought. Before I even bought a record player, I bought that record and carried it around with me for, like, three years. It's so scratched by now that I need to get a new one since I've listened to it literally hundreds and hundreds of times.

Do you have any advice for younger writers?

My one piece of advice I always go back to in terms of finding opportunities or getting people to hear your music — or generally finding success in the industry — is to get creative with the avenues you're trying. 

The ways I've always found success have been because I've not just knocked on every door, but pounded down every door. Nine out of 10 times, the door's not going to open up! But then one out of 10 is going to open up. If you're the one person who's actively pounding down every door, you're going to be the one who gets through it.

Just try every avenue. Try something weird. Try something people aren't thinking of doing. Just get creative with how you look for opportunities and you're going to find something.

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